T-34 for Tigers

I know a thread about T-34 is already in existence, but I want to phrase the question a little differently:

What if Germans implemented mass production of a T-34-type tank (sloped armor, aluminum block, simpler design, etc) instead of the overly complicated Tigers?

Some contend that the last years of the war would've been totally different if the German High Command took a different approach in tank development. (Opting for mass-producable T-34-type tanks, instead of low quantity and high maintenance super tanks)

 

Actually the Panther tank quite obviously is the German version of the T-34 tank. And even that took two years to make it work....

perhaps you mean the Germans should have copied the T-34 1:1 and push it to the front in big numbers,right?

 

The German design and manufacture "mind-set" was always Quality over Quantity. Don't forget, every new design concept had to be approved at the highest level.
You are right Dan, the last years would have been quite different had the German High Command took a page out of the Russian or Allied book.
I have seen program's about "The Best Tank of WWII", and I always shout "The King Tiger". Which, 1 on 1 it probably was, but overall, the sheer volume of T34's and Shermans coupled with their adaptability and ease of manufacture and maintenance will always put them above the Tiger.
In the final years of WWII German Technology was superior, not just in tank design, but, they had lost important territories that were supplying the much needed resources, and their industrial areas were constantly pounded from Allied air attacks. Yet still, they insisted on Quality. You could say that they where, "Victims of their own success".

 

This is an interesting question; while it is no doubt that the German mindset would never have allowed for such a plan, if it did happen it would have had a profound impact on the war.

Firstly, I think the outcome of the war in Africa would have been different. In the end it was sheer quantity of Allied armour that meant it could defeat the Axis armour, as the new tanks could only match the existing German armour. So, if the Afrika korps had been supplied with many more tanks, it would realistically have been able to conquer the Middle East. The overall plan was to link up with Army group south in Russia at the oilfields of the Caucusus.

If this happened, a whole new army would have been available for use in Russia, perhaps turning the tide of that battle.

Of course, all of this is mere speculation and probably unlikely to have happened even if they did mass produce tanks; but this a "what if" thread after all!

 

The Panther was not the German version of the T34, it was 30% heavier putting it into a class more comparable to an IS2. During the later half of the war the Germans were producing an 25tonn design (the pz IV) and a 45tonn beast that would have been classed a heavy by any other combattant and had some serious problems due to having automotive components that had beeen designed with a much lower final weight in mind.
Had they designed a 30/35 tonn tank like everybody else, possibly a copy of the T-34 adapted to German production techniques, it would most likely be little better than the original or the M4 due to the degarading quality control in German factories. That minor disadntage would be offset at first by superior German crew training but would become significant once the up gunned allied models (T34/85, M4/76 and Firefly) with battle experienced crews appear so once we get to 1944 the Germans are worse off.
What happens earlier is less easy to predict, if it reaches the front in quantity by mid/late 42 it could make a big difference in the 42/43 winter battles, give first Rumanian armoured or 8th panzer a decent tank and the final result at Stalingrad and Velikie Luki may change a lot, those battles were sometimes pretty close, but then the same result could be achieved just by stepping up Pz IV production, any replacement for the T38(t) those units had would have been a big improvement. If it appears in mid 43 when the Panther was historically first deployed (calling it fully battle ready would be an exageration), it will probably not change a thing. Having a more reliable vehicle than the Panther, and we can reasonably expect a 35 tonn design not to suffer from overloaded components, may help a bit to reduce the number of vehicles that had to be abandoned and raise the soviet losses a bit but the Panther or Tiger could at times dominate the battlefield in ways a lighter design would be unable to do.

 

@blacksnake it was not the cost-effectife(or something I'm not English) that the t-34 and sherman won it were the factories and america had much more as Germany and the same for Russia.

 

The problem for the Germans wasn't the tanks- it was the fuel. If they wanted to mass produce the T-34, it would be easier to just build more Panzer IV lines. Panzer IVs were built up to German standards of ergonomics and tactical flexibility.

The Long barrel Panzer IVs were superior to the T-34/76. The Panther tank, while expensive, consumed 140% of the fuel for a Panzer IV. The Tiger tank consumed 160% of the fuel. The Germans factored in their logistical ability as far as fuel was concerned- that is why they opted to mass produce heavy, premium tanks like the Panther.

I remember reading that the German Panzer force only consumed something like 7-8% of Germany's war production efforts. I made a thread about this: "Build Panzer IVs instead of Panthers" in the past.

I think many posters here concluded that the Germans needed an upgrade over the Panzer IV by 1943, no matter what.

 

I can't see the Germans mass producing the T 34 by reverse engineering it. First, the Germans don't have the casting capacity for the turret. This would require a new design using plate instead. Next, the magniesum / aluminum engine block and head would have really strained the Germans on available metals. This too would have had to be re-engineered to use steel.
I doubt that Wa Pruf 6 would have allowed the two man turret as it is horribly inefficent. The same goes for the ammunition layout.

Bottom line is that the T34/76 was more bark than bite. Yes, it forced the Germans to rethink their tank designs and production but it wasn't the wonder weapon it is sometimes made out to be.

 

Mr. Gardner,

Off to steal the thunder from the rest of the forum again?

The T-34-76's record in tank-versus-tank combat actually wasn't all that impressive. While fighting it must had been an extremely unnerving experience, Russian Tank Corps rarely defeated a German Panzer Division in mobile battle until 1943.

 

Weren't the front and side armor invulnerable to Panzer III's with the 50mm and Panzer IV's with the short 75mm? And the standard issue German 37mm A/T gun in 1941 couldn't knock it out?

 

I saw drawings of a projected German copy of the T-34, there was also a Vk number, with what looked like a traditional German welded turret and something like a KwK 40 gun but I can't find them again and wonder if they were a fake. The turret did look like it was designed along traditional German lines with a 3 men crew but I saw no interior drawings so I can't say if it was planned to have a basket. On the other hand the hull shape and suspension looked like pure T-34, so it would probably have had the relatively thin, if well sloped, front armour of the T34 and the weight class would be more likely in the 35 tonn range and would probably use a gasoline Maybach engine as well.
What always surpised me is why did the German army accept a 45t tank for Panther and and 56 one for Tiger when the requirements called for much lighter vehicles (I believe 36 and 45 tonns respectively).

 

well if you think about it the king tiger was a really good tank just think a tiger or king tiger could claim all these different allied tanks it took 5 shermans to knock out one tiger and probably more to knock out a king tiger I remember hearing about a famous tank commander who knocked out I think about a hundred shermans in a matter of hours

 

Wolfy,

It looks like most of the time the panzers ran circles around the T-34 until they could get flank or rear hits at 50 meters. The T-34s during the early battles of 1941 had no radio, very poor optics, often very little armor-piercing ammuntion, badly maintained. With the two man turret and untrained crews, it usually lost tank battles.

 

You mean this site?

Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Sd. Kfz. 171

 

Thanks, not the same site but it looks very much like it though what I remember was even more "T-34 like". While looking for it I also came across a photo of a turret very much like the one depicted near an incomplete Maus hull so I think no "standard" german tank had a cupola on the left that required a bulge in the turret side armour.

 

I assume that smoke was generally used? 50meters is deadly close.

 

That would be the Damiler Benz entry into the Panther design competition, the VK 30.01(D). It too had an overlapping suspension but did use rear drive like a T-34. The same gun as the Panther was mounted (the KwK 42). A diesel and gasoline version was proposed. It also used leaf springs for suspension not torsion bars.

 

If Germany would have created a better model of Self-Propelled rocket artillery I believe it would have had a very disastrous effect on massive soviet tank assualts. The Panzerwerfer was less useful do to its design


As demonstrated by the Soviet Katyushas flattening towns and embattlments and Typhoons ripping convoys to shreds.

Germany could have raised hell with massive rocket attacks.

 

I think the germans had too much pride to copy 1:1 and produce the German T34.

If only the German factories were put on a total war production by early 1940. The Allies really would of had difficulties in defeating the Germans by May 1945.

 

everybody knows a bomb can fix just about anything or even artillery could make the best tank on the field a burning hunk of junk that just sits there till it,s dozed out of the place it was killed in