What if...Britain declares war on Germany and USSR

What if Britain and France had declared War on Germany and USSR in September 1939 ? It is my opinion that around that time there was a lot of political chicanery involving Britain, France Poland USSR etc. I believe Hitler knew that Britain wanted Germany and USSR to go to war and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was Hitlers ace card. He knew the Anglo/Polish agreement was worthless and had agreed with Stalin to carve Poland up and call Britains bluff. So, again, the question is "What if Britain declared war on Germany and USSR in September 1939?"

 

The first question that must be asked is why on earth would GB declare war on both German and Russia?

 

Because they had a large Navy?

Regards
Kruska

 

This would make the military situation far worse for the British and to some extent the French, as it would force them to devote resources to defend their colonies near to the Soviet Union, it would also probably mean that Britain would have to seek peace on the fall of France in the summer of 1940 due to the extra military problems the British would face defending its colonies.
To have declared war on the Soviet Union as well as Germany might have been considered the honourable thing to do, but it would also have been the stupidest thing to have done.

 

i believe the war would be over increadibly quicky
russias power combined with germans power would be to much for britain alone to handle
even if america joined in the war they would be outnumbered and out gunned

 

They was a strong Appeasement lobby in England at the time. It was tough enough to get war declared on Germany anyway......................

 

This scenario, at least for me, is a historical near miss. There have been other posts related to this in the forum. The USSR did invade Poland and also took on Finland. At one point, the UK had plans to intervene in the war between Finland and the USSR but the war ended before the plan was implemented. Had that happened, Germany and the USSR could have found themselves unlikely allies. However, I don't see an alliance between Nazi Germany and the USSR to last long.
Hitler and Stalin would be sharpening their daggers, waiting for a good opportunity for a stab in the back.
Germany would, I think, go on and rule the continent. Once France is taken cared of, I think Hitler would've turned his sights on the USSR.
Taking this from the USSR side, the Soviets know that the UK could not attack the USSR directly. The UK has to go through Central Europe to reach USSR. So for the Soviets, the Germans would be their buffer.
The UK may or may not choose to go through Finland but wouldn't be able to do so with what happened with their Army in France.
Where else can the UK and its allies hit the USSR? Turkey? I don't think the Turks would want to get involved. India would be a better bet but it would be a logistical nightmare to go through Afghanistan.
Now the question arises: Why didn't the UK and France declare war on the USSR when the two had guaranteed Poland's security? This have been discussed before on some posts in the forum and I think it's time to revisit the issue and hear some ideas from the newer guys and gals here.

 

Why would we declare war on any nation anytime ?
Anywho...
Because we promised Poland military help should they need it and it was for that reason we declared war on Germany early September . USSR invaded Poland and we did nothing. Perhaps the question should be "Why didnt we declare war on USSR ?" IMO, the answer is political tomfoolery.

 

Hello andya,

No not really; and a quick look into Wiki never hurts!

Anglo-Polish military alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On August 25, two days after the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Polish-British Common Defence Pact was signed. The treaty contained promises of mutual military assistance between the nations in the event either was attacked by another European country. The United Kingdom, sensing a dangerous trend of German expansionism, sought to prevent German aggression by this show of solidarity. In a secret protocol of the pact, the United Kingdom only actually offered assistance in the case of an attack on Poland specifically by Germany, though both the United Kingdom and Poland were bound not to enter agreements with any other third countries which were a threat to the other.

On September 17 the Soviet Union invaded Poland through the eastern Polish border. According to the Polish-British Common Defence Pact, the United Kingdom should give Poland “all the support and assistance in its power” if Poland was "engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter". However, Poland did not engage the Soviet troops in hostilities, did not declare war on the USSR, and did not acknowledge the existence of a state of war with the USSR; the Polish troops were ordered to withdraw and avoid confrontations with the Soviet army. The Polish ambassador in London, Raczyński, contacted the British Foreign Office demanding a declaration of war that Poland itself was not going to make.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hi Kruska

For "Promises of mutual military assistance..attacked by another European country" to secretly mean Germany and Germany only, read " Political Chicanery and Tomfoolery"!!

20/9/1939
"Polish troops at Grodno manage to kill 800 Red Army soldiers and destroy 10 tanks whilst defending the city" is a quote taken from this very own website. So it seems that they ,infact, did engage hostilities with the Soviets.

Best

Andy

 

I believe, it was a political, smart and correct move to make, signed and agreed by the signatories. Hitler Germany was Englands concern - not Stalin, and they didn't make a secret out of it - and the Poles knew it.

Indeed it was Polish overconfidence, that gave Hitler the reason or forced him to a full scale attack on Poland, otherwise he might have settled for the Danzig issue for the first round. See the checz, first Sudeten (first round) then the rest (second round).

Hitler IMHO was not ready and willing for a fullout war with England and France - therefore he would have pushed (militarily if necessary) for the Danzig issue first. However faced with the Polish-British Common Defence Pact, he would have to take into account that British troops might be stationed in Poland - therefore he postponed the attack by one week (change of battle plans) and then went out for all. - Maybe

Quote from above source:
Polish troops were ordered to withdraw and avoid confrontations with the Soviet army.!!!

Regards
Kruska

 

I believe common sense and self preservation also played a role. The Russian Empire was allies with GB in WW1 against the very same nation who had just attacked Poland starting a second war. Stalin being a cunning politician knew that Germany attacking Poland first meant war with the West, giving him a free reign in Easter Europe.

Britain had her hands full with Germany and Russia might be a potential ally down the road war with both nations meant suicide.

 

Stalin wasnt that cunning, imprisoning or killing many of the USSR's best aircraft designers and generals.

 

The new Generals appointed won the war...

 

Yes indeed but I am not calling Stalin's gamble cunning. It's simply stupid. Stalin was a fearful leader. He was afraid that everyone was out to get him. If he had kept these "engineers of war" the war in the East would have ended much faster.

 

Yes Stalin was paranoid and ruthless but what dictator isnt? I think thats just part of the job qualifications Yes I too think that sending many to their deaths who would have otherwise helped with the war effort was a mistake (particularly the aeronautical engineers). But one has to look at the people that took their place. Also Stalin was reshaping Russia to the Bolshevik view... any and all who did not share this vision had to go. Would have Stalin sent these same men to their deaths had he known war was coming so soon? Probably not all.

I for one would pick Zhukov over Tukhachevsky any day

 

haha.. Yes I would take a dynamic pair like Zhukov and Koniev. The aeronautical engineers hurt the USSR in the long run by delaying fighter production at the beginning and middle parts of the war.

 

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree as to if Polands forces killing 800 Red Army soldiers is engaging the enemy or not!!

 

Hello andya,

Nothing to disagree about, it propably happened. However this does not change the issue - which is - that the Polish government did not declare war on Russia and that the Polish government even ordered its troops to stand down
Quote from my previous post

Regards
Kruska

 

Key phrase here, ""engaged in hostilites with a European power in consequence of aggression by the latter"

The Poles may have been ordered to withdraw and not to engage but clearly there was a time when they had no choice but to defend themselves and "engage" the "aggressor" (USSR) culminating in 800 Red Army soldiers being killed . As far as i can tell the P-B defence pact did not mention War having to be declared in order for it to be implemented. As an aside did Germany declare War on Poland or merely invade in September 1939?