Operation Barbarossa - the UK is neutral and Japan attacks Siberia

Have a look at a map of where the Transiberian railway is to the border of Manchuria.
Then have a look at the Japanese railways.
Then we can have a serious discussion.

 

That could be avoided a number of ways.

1. No Polish guarantee.
2. No German occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia.
3. A Polish border revision and territory in the East on conclusion of a war against the USSR.

 

About the manganese:

German import of over 30 % manganese:
1929:390000 ton
1932:106000
1934:222000
1935:392000
1936:229000
1937:554000
1938:425000 (of which 14 % from the SU:60000)

Source:the iron and steel industries of Europe
1939:300000 of which 6000 from the SU
1940:120000 of which 65000 from the SU
1941:120000 of which 75000 from the SU
Source:Sturmvogel:German exports to Germany 1939-41

Per one ton of steel produced,30 to 40 kg of manganese was consumes (source:the iron and steel industries of Europe).If the Germans produced 3000 tanks,each containing 10 ton of steel,these 30000 ton of steel would claim 1 million kg of manganese= 1000 ton,which is meaningless.

The fact that the Germans imported more manganese before the war,and that they obtained with less manganese yet big victories,could indicate something about the claimed importance of the import of manganese,a,d about the importance of the Soviet manganese: namely that its importance has been much exaggerated.

Also from The Iron and Steel industries of Europe;some figures of German production of manganese (of 12 %)

1929:183000 ton,132:20000,1934:140000,1935:224000,1936:242000,1937:180000,1938:191000

These figures also are debunking the theories about the importance of the imported manganese.

And,we are not talking about the consumption:it is not because in 1938 617000 ton of manganese was imported/produced,that 617000 ton was consumed.

And,the stocks:in january 1940 the Soviet imports constituted 0.5 % of the stoks,in july 5%,in january 1941: 30%,in july 75 %
Why? It is possible that the Germans were producing less manganese,what is decreasing the importance of the imported manganese .

 

You do like defeating your own arguments dont you.

 

The Polish guarentee was totally unimported,and,never would Poland yield to Hitler's demands or become a German satellite . .
Point 2 also was totally unimported.

The gurantee to Poland and the Coup of Prague had no influence :they did change NOTHING.

 

Why would it be important that in july 1941,the Soviet manganese constituted 75% of the German stocks ?

 

Do you need me to tell you?

 

Exactly how would the Japanese cut the Transiberian railway?

Yes I do know the distances involved when speaking of trucks.... Historically, Zhukov, in the battle of Khalkin Gol supplied his troops with the help of 2600 trucks something the Japanese were unable to accomplish.

How exactly would the Japanese be able to supply their men in this scenario if they were historically unable to do so with much smaller numbers involved?

elaborate

This is only your opinion that is backed by wishful thinking and no concrete evidence. To somehow suggest that an alliance between the Bolsheviks and the Nazis was probable is a sign that you are simply unaware of the relationship between the two.

 

Yes

 

Realistically the only way for Japan to have been of any use is if they had gone along the lines that another thread has gone on here. Other wise the Japanese front would end up making a very useful training ground for introduction to warfare and command

The Japanese lacked the right equipment, logistical support and combined arm's doctrine that would have been needed not to mention the right type of officers.

 

For the chairman of Bafa(British Adolf Fanbois Association):about the claim that the caucasian oil could be transported to Wladivostok:

let's assume that every day 5 trains (=2000 ton oil) were leaving Baku(which is a poor 730000 ton a year),as the distance to Wladiwostok was some 10000 km ,loading,going,unloading and returning would claim 80 days at minimum.
Thus,for a little 730000 ton,400 trains,4000 waggons and thousands of staff would be needed.

Of course,you could argue that the Japanese would go to the Urals for the fraish air .

 

In 1940,Japan imported some 6 million ton oil =17000 ton a day =40 trains a day ,multiplied by 80 days,this would claim 3200 trains .
Thus,the claim that Japan could be supplied from the Caucasus,is something for under the bus,where it will keep company,Franco joining Adolf,Rommel the Great parotting Alexander the Great,etc,etc.

 

For some one who did not know the Soviet Union entered into negotiations to join the Axis powers I do not think it is me who is unaware of things.

 

Well I know its runs at 50 million tons of freight between Russia and China alone today.
But that aside the Japanese would not have to get all their oil this way.
They can just send tankers straight to the Black Sea to pick it up.

 

Who's supplies come via what railway?

The Japanese during the 1918-1927 armed intervention in Siberia had studied geographical features serving for possible fortification in the Russian Far East. Most important were the Trans-Siberian Railway and the recent Amur-Baikal Railway. In Manchukuo a system of nine railway lines reached towards Soviet lands. To cut Russian railways Japanese experts considered paratroops. The Siberian river system was also looked on as possibly important.

Japanese strategic planning for mainland Asia (1905

 

Really? Clearly im waisting my time here. There were never any serious negotiations between the two.

 

You just need to read a lot more on the war.
There is no excuse for ignorance with so much information available.

Just prior to the formation of the Tripartite Pact, the Soviet Union was informed of its existence, and the potential of its joining.[SUP][2][/SUP] Vyacheslav Molotov was thus sent to Berlin to discuss the pact and the possibility of the Soviet Union joining it.[SUP][2][/SUP]
For the Soviets, they considered joining the Tripartite Pact to be an update of existing agreements with Germany.[SUP][2][/SUP] On Molotov's visit, he agreed in principle to the Soviet Union joining the pact so long as some details, such as Soviet annexation of Finland, could be worked out.[SUP][3][/SUP] The Soviet government sent a revised version of the pact to Germany on November 25.[SUP][3][/SUP] To demonstrate the benefits of partnership, the Soviet Union made large economic offerings to Germany.[SUP][4][/SUP]

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When they received the Soviet offer in November, they simply did not reply. They did, however, accept the new economic offerings, and signed an agreement for such on January 10, 1941.[4]

• ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] [SUP]c[/SUP] [SUP]d[/SUP] Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, pg. 199
• ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, pg. 200
• ^ [SUP]a[/SUP] [SUP]b[/SUP] Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, pg. 201

 

the wiki source is on the usual RD level

 

The source is Weinberg, Gerhard L. A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II as it says.
Of course this information is available in dozens of books from Stalin by Robert Service to Adolf Hitler by Toland to name but two.
Educate yourself their is a wealth of information out there.

 

You are mixing apples and oranges (for the millionth time ), Zhukov's forces numbered in the thousands while Japan had to support Millions! If you can not get your head around that then you should sue the school you went to for getting such a shoddy education especially in maths.

That mentions there plan, It does not give any indication on to hose there forces would be supplied which is what was asked. The plan on paper might be sound but with the Japanese equipment there forces would be left down to being foot soldiers as I suspect few if Any Japanese vehicles would be suitable to the harsh conditions they would be up against. This situation would be comparable to the Winter war, Even with fewer numbers The Finn's knowing the terrain and with tactics more suited inflicted massive casualties on the Soviets, In japan vs Russia the Russians wouldnt have to worry about number's as they could match the Japanese man for man and some.

You mention that the Trans-Siberian line runs 50 million tons a year these days, Well that is after several decades and LOTS of work, Back then you would not get 5% of that number. Japanese tankers through the Black Sea? Dealtful as they simply lacked the number of tanker's needed to support such a long supply line not to mention that Turkey likely neutral would say no to them.

Im going to be blunt then give up, You tell us to look at actual information. Then how about you actually be willing to learn from other's and stop smoking your crack pipe ranting on that we are the idiots and that you who only posts in the AH section know All! Your posts are all ill informed, badly laid out and simply a waste of every member on this forum to read. Go away as I did years back, Grow up, Think about where you stuffed up then come back, If you want to argue something then reply to there actual questions rather then ranting about unrelated topics. Also be willing to learn from other's rather then Wiki, I too as Im sure other's on here can vouch was simply a major tool on here when I first joined but while I might still enjoy a good AH thread I like to think I at least look for plausible solutions rather then covering my ears and yelling LALALALALA!!

Hopefully in a couple year's you will come back better but until then any post/thread of yours shall be ignored by me.

Cheers, von_noobie

P.S. Apologies to the Admins and rest of the members if this post comes off as too offensive.