Two Fronts in Russsia

I always wondered if Japan had attacked Russia first before Germany say around 1940 then Germany attacks in 1941.

What kind of drain on the Soviet war machine that would have caused and what would be the military situation by 1943.

 

As I understand it, Stalin had 40 divisions in the Far East to counter the japanese threat. It were these divisions that tipped the balance on the "German" front, once they were shipped to that front. I am by no means knowledgable on the eastern front, but I guess that would have tipped the balance in Germany's favour in 1941???

 

japanese attacking russia? never thought of that...

 

Yes they had some 2 million troops held in eastern Russia but at this stage of the war Japan had veteran troops just as another thought what if Japan solely went after Russia and not attacked Pearl Harbour interesting!

 

Perhaps there would be a replay of Khankin-Gol.

Also pick a map of the region. The Japanese troops would hav to walk a damn long way till they get to any strategically interesting location over pretty awful ground with no logistical infrastructure (not a single railroad, etc.). And with nothing really useful to conquer. Quite frankly they would be much better off going after easier and richer pickings such as the Dutch oil and rubber in Indonesia.

 

What about the Trans Siberian Railway Vladivostok to Khabarovsk to Chita and so on?

[ 21. January 2006, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]

 

The Japanese got their nose bloody -38 and -39 in battles with the Red Army. So probably not again in 1940. If they did the better armor by Russians would result in another shameful defeat for the Japanese I think.

In 1941 the Japanese ( according to the book below ) waited which will collapse first. If Britain, they´ll go for the southern option, If Russia then they´ll go for the northern option. They were not going for active options until FDR made the sanctions.

The Pearl Harbor Papers: Inside the Japanese Plans (Paperback)

by Donald M. Goldstein (Editor), Katherine Dillon (Editor)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574882228/103-4432492-5665428?v=glance&n=283155

Also interesting that the Japanese top military officers already in August 1941 considered the German position in Russia "not good".

 

That's interesting how about this when Stalin moved those troops to the west I think it was 1943 not sure of the actual year how about Japan attacked then?

 

The Transiberian runs across Siberia from Moscow to Vladivostok. Excellent supply line to the Soviet forces, not exactly along any desired invasion axis from North China or Manchuria to anywhere...

The North-South lines you see here are modern additions.

 

December 1941, right after the Japanese had their little initiative on Dec.7th 1941. Later Hollywood made a couple of films about this, one was called Tora, Tora, Tora. The Soviets took this as an interest in a different strategic direction.

And the Germans are criticized for opening a second front!

 

Thanks all yea it looks like a no no for the Japs just one thing what would have happen if the Germans bought off Japan with something do you think they would bite?

[ 21. January 2006, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]

 

What do you have in mind?

 

The Ribbentrop deal Aug 1939 was too much for the Japanese. After that they did not trust the Germans to make any pacts for sure.

 

Despite the many troubles the russian army did have in the opening year(s) of the war, they did have a good amount of passable armor- something the japanese entirely lacked, from what I understand.

Japanese forces attacking basically on foot over the vast expanses of eastern russia?

The phrase "shooting fish in a barrel" comes to mind...

Plus the logistical nightmare the japanese would have faced, as Za suggests. The japanese air force/navy was their main strength- and without bases to fuel planes- for that matter, without fuel to fuel planes...

If the russians withstood the german attack, they would have withstood a japanese attack with much less trouble.

 

Passable? What do you mean by passable? Kalkhin-Gol was done with T-26s and BTs, sardine can quality, nothing fancier was needed! The Japs on the other hand had tuna can quality, which is even worse

And the other tanks the Russians had were the best tanks in 1941 in the entire world, T-34s and KV-1s.

Maybe you'll wish to re-phrase that

 

what if Japan attacked in late July early August when the Soviets were close to defeat? They would not have been hit by the oil embargo yet and would not know it was coming. The Japanese don't even have to attack but be a threat to the Soviets. The only reason Stalin pulled forces west was because his spy in Tokyo said Japan was heading South and East.

 

Stalin pulled reserves West in December only, by the timeframe you quote they would still be there in the Far East.

 

I know that, i actually changed my idea midway through typing and forgot to correct it. If Japan attacked early in the time stated, or just posed a threat, those armies could not go west.

 

good question i guess japan probably would take some pressure of the germans but not for long i guess russia would probably simply destroy any invasion japan lauched using their numbers then shift all the divisions off to fight the germans.

 

Maybe, but that delay may cause as much if not more trouble than in reality. Or maybe a blessing in disguise?