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Interesting article saying they found the man who killed Wittman.

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Fury 1991, May 15, 2010.

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Fury 1991 New Member

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Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Revealed after 66 years...the hero who ended Nazi tank ace's reign of terror

Fury 1991, May 15, 2010

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Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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Once again I must give thanks for interesting information and another link added to my bookmarks.
See::
panzerace.net | michael wittmann biography
for more on Wittman.

Mankind's biggest Trepidation is his fellow Man.
Unknown : (If no-one claims it I will)

Biak, May 15, 2010

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Three Tigers In 12 Minutes – Joe Ekins part 1 - MP3
“Whitmann was a Criminal” – Joe Ekins part 2 - MP3

From:
Welcome to the Tank Museum - Home of the Tank - Veteran Podcasts

I'd say it was hardly news now that it was Ekins that did it, whatever stuff's been turned up recently, but I suppose that's sometimes how you have to promote a new documentary.

~A

It's only the Internet...

von Poop, May 15, 2010

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formerjughead likes this.
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Von Poop said:

Three Tigers In 12 Minutes – Joe Ekins part 1 - MP3
“Whitmann was a Criminal” – Joe Ekins part 2 - MP3

From:
Welcome to the Tank Museum - Home of the Tank - Veteran Podcasts

I'd say it was hardly news now that it was Ekins that did it, whatever stuff's been turned up recently, but I suppose that's sometimes how you have to promote a new documentary.

~A
Click to expand...

True. In all honesty I don't care much for Ekins.

Fury 1991, May 15, 2010

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m kenny Member

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cbiwv said:

True. In all honesty I don't care much for Ekins.
Click to expand...

Why?

m kenny, May 15, 2010

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A recent popularist TV programme has done little other than to add heat to the debate over who killed Michael Wittmann in the fields south of the city of Caen on 8 August 1944 during Operation TOTALIZE. A new programme is currently in production that tells the very different stories of Wittmann and Ekins, how they met on the battlefield and analyses the facts of Tiger 007's last engagement.

Joe Ekins, for the first time, tells his story in full, which enables the BHTV team to vist the battlefilds of Normandy and piece together the events that led to the Death of a Panzer Ace.

nice desktop wallpaper...

Home

sniper1946, May 16, 2010

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m kenny said:

Why?
Click to expand...

I'll second that 'why'?

It's only the Internet...

von Poop, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 New Member

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Von Poop said:

I'll second that 'why'?[/QUOTE

His demeanor. Wittman was fighting for a cause he thought was just. Nobody believes they are evil. Ekins at his age should understand that and show some respect for Wittman the warrior and not be blinded by Wittman's loyalty to the Nazi ideology. He comes across as a bitter old man.
Click to expand...

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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cbiwv said:

Von Poop said:

I'll second that 'why'?[/QUOTE

His demeanor. Wittman was fighting for a cause he thought was just. Nobody believes they are evil. Ekins at his age should understand that and show some respect for Wittman the warrior and not be blinded by Wittman's loyalty to the Nazi ideology. He comes across as a bitter old man.
Click to expand...

All due respect, but your post is just plain misguided. Wittman fought for Nazi Germany, a country that launched a total war of aggression as well as introduced industrialized mass murder to the world. Micheal Wittmann himself was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of men.

Yes, he did so in the legally sanction field of battle and yes that doesn't make him evil. But he did DESERVE to die. He was an enemy of the Allies.

For you to to even consider lecturing Mr. Ekins is insulting and I wont stand for it. You have NO RIGHT to tell a man who went into battle vs Wittman and the German Panzers, what he should or not think. Such arrogance on your part!

It is war. War creates hate. I understand and respect what Mr. Ekins said. It seems harsh to our minds that have not been subjected to the horrors of war, but it is perfectly reasonable for a veteran who has.

Micheal WIttman died and the world was the better for it. He was no freedom fighter worthy of our respect. He was a soldier for one of the worst regimes in history. He gave an oath to Adolf Hitler, a fact German apologists everywhere want us to forget when talking about the Heer.

This was a man who fought for Hitler and the Fatherland, tried and did kill Brits, Americans, Poles, and Frenchmen.HOw you can suggest to a board of countrymen of these men that Wittman did NOT deserve to die is something only you can clarify.

I, for one, am glad that he died. I am glad that alot of German soldiers died because that hastened the end of the war.*( wish that none had to de, but Hitler and his cronies made that impossible. In the situation then presented, the only way to end the way was to kill Germans. )

I say three cheers for Mr. Ekins. He did the world a service by eliminating one of the best tankers Germany had to offer.That is something that was of great benefit to the Allies cause.
Click to expand...

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

GrandsonofAMarine, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 New Member

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GrandsonofAMarine said:

cbiwv said:

All due respect, but your post is just plain misguided. Wittman fought for Nazi Germany, a country that launched a total war of aggression as well as introduced industrialized mass murder to the world. Micheal Wittmann himself was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of men.

Yes, he did so in the legally sanction field of battle and yes that doesn't make him evil. But he did DESERVE to die. He was an enemy of the Allies.

For you to to even consider lecturing Mr. Ekins is insulting and I wont stand for it. You have NO RIGHT to tell a man who went into battle vs Wittman and the German Panzers, what he should or not think. Such arrogance on your part!

It is war. War creates hate. I understand and respect what Mr. Ekins said. It seems harsh to our minds that have not been subjected to the horrors of war, but it is perfectly reasonable for a veteran who has.

Micheal WIttman died and the world was the better for it. He was no freedom fighter worthy of our respect. He was a soldier for one of the worst regimes in history. He gave an oath to Adolf Hitler, a fact German apologists everywhere want us to forget when talking about the Heer.

This was a man who fought for Hitler and the Fatherland, tried and did kill Brits, Americans, Poles, and Frenchmen.HOw you can suggest to a board of countrymen of these men that Wittman did NOT deserve to die is something only you can clarify.

I, for one, am glad that he died. I am glad that alot of German soldiers died because that hastened the end of the war.*( wish that none had to de, but Hitler and his cronies made that impossible. In the situation then presented, the only way to end the way was to kill Germans. )

I say three cheers for Mr. Ekins. He did the world a service by eliminating one of the best tankers Germany had to offer.That is something that was of great benefit to the Allies cause.
Click to expand...

As a combat veteran myself there is such a thing as humility. And since you have never been on the field of battle I would suggest YOU never lecture me again in this sort of manner. I don't mind if another vet does it but you have not earned that right. This is a forum. I was not lecturing Ekins. He is not present on this forum. Your post suggests you are a very angry person with a inability to understand that Wittman too was a human being.
Click to expand...

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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GrandsonofAMarine said:

cbiwv said:

All due respect, but your post is just plain misguided. Wittman fought for Nazi Germany, a country that launched a total war of aggression as well as introduced industrialized mass murder to the world. Micheal Wittmann himself was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of men.

Yes, he did so in the legally sanction field of battle and yes that doesn't make him evil. But he did DESERVE to die. He was an enemy of the Allies.

For you to to even consider lecturing Mr. Ekins is insulting and I wont stand for it. You have NO RIGHT to tell a man who went into battle vs Wittman and the German Panzers, what he should or not think. Such arrogance on your part!

It is war. War creates hate. I understand and respect what Mr. Ekins said. It seems harsh to our minds that have not been subjected to the horrors of war, but it is perfectly reasonable for a veteran who has.

Micheal WIttman died and the world was the better for it. He was no freedom fighter worthy of our respect. He was a soldier for one of the worst regimes in history. He gave an oath to Adolf Hitler, a fact German apologists everywhere want us to forget when talking about the Heer.

This was a man who fought for Hitler and the Fatherland, tried and did kill Brits, Americans, Poles, and Frenchmen.HOw you can suggest to a board of countrymen of these men that Wittman did NOT deserve to die is something only you can clarify.

I, for one, am glad that he died. I am glad that alot of German soldiers died because that hastened the end of the war.*( wish that none had to de, but Hitler and his cronies made that impossible. In the situation then presented, the only way to end the way was to kill Germans. )

I say three cheers for Mr. Ekins. He did the world a service by eliminating one of the best tankers Germany had to offer.That is something that was of great benefit to the Allies cause.
Click to expand...

So it's ok for people to die, as long as they aren't on "our side"? They might have families of their own, finished high school with plans to start a family and become a doctor only to be conscripted into the army days later. The plans are put on a permanent hold when his life is ended by a bullet to head, but it's fair right? Hitler started the war so it's only fair as many Germans are killed as possible in retaliation? But damn that kid to hell if in the process he takes even one of "our guys" with him, right? But what if he survived the war, went back to college, became a doctor and made contributions to his field like Felix Wankel? That is a very ignorant statement, all nations had their great fighters who were doing what they had to do, shoot the other side! War is a horrible thing that becomes even more tragic when conscription is involved.

As for the "oath", Wittmann in his later military career did indeed become a member of the S.S. from what I can find. However, oaths were always given to the leader of a nation and in most countries still are today. After an oath is taken, how many people truly live by it?

I also don't know how you can basically spit on this mans tank career like this just because he fought for Germany. The Germany many of these men knew of when they fought is not the Germany we know of post war. Various enemies became friends post battle, many of these friendships were either taken to the grave or still last today.

As for Mr. Ekins, I don't agree with his views on the military much either but I respect his service. While Germany did indeed commit atrocities during the war, Mr. Ekins was most likely shown footage that was propaganda in nature to drum up war support. At the same time, in Germany the government was showing films like Ohm Kruger which showed the British committing atrocities during the Boer War. Those who "bought it" would either be in for a big surprise when meeting their enemy or carry these views for the rest of their lives.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, war is multifaceted as are the people who fight in them regardless of nationality, gender, etc. Especially for those of us who are removed, it's disrespectful to say someone deserves to die when we were never in a position where we were forced to take another persons life. Was Wittmann's life worth taking? Unless he would run a concentration camp on weekends or have target practices on civilians during lunch hour, I doubt it, but even then it's a decision I would not want to make without having the full picture.
Click to expand...

Mehar, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 likes this.
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Mehar said:

GrandsonofAMarine said:

So it's ok for people to die, as long as they aren't on "our side"? They might have families of their own, finished high school with plans to start a family and become a doctor only to be conscripted into the army days later. The plans are put on a permanent hold when his life is ended by a bullet to head, but it's fair right? Hitler started the war so it's only fair as many Germans are killed as possible in retaliation? But damn that kid to hell if in the process he takes even one of "our guys" with him, right? But what if he survived the war, went back to college, became a doctor and made contributions to his field like Felix Wankel? That is a very ignorant statement, all nations had their great fighters who were doing what they had to do, shoot the other side! War is a horrible thing that becomes even more tragic when conscription is involved.

As for the "oath", Wittmann in his later military career did indeed become a member of the S.S. from what I can find. However, oaths were always given to the leader of a nation and in most countries still are today. After an oath is taken, how many people truly live by it?

I also don't know how you can basically spit on this mans tank career like this just because he fought for Germany. The Germany many of these men knew of when they fought is not the Germany we know of post war. Various enemies became friends post battle, many of these friendships were either taken to the grave or still last today.

As for Mr. Ekins, I don't agree with his views on the military much either but I respect his service. While Germany did indeed commit atrocities during the war, Mr. Ekins was most likely shown footage that was propaganda in nature to drum up war support. At the same time, in Germany the government was showing films like Ohm Kruger which showed the British committing atrocities during the Boer War. Those who "bought it" would either be in for a big surprise when meeting their enemy or carry these views for the rest of their lives.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, war is multifaceted as are the people who fight in them regardless of nationality, gender, etc. Especially for those of us who are removed, it's disrespectful to say someone deserves to die when we were never in a position where we were forced to take another persons life. Was Wittmann's life worth taking? Unless he would run a concentration camp on weekends or have target practices on civilians during lunch hour, I doubt it, but even then it's a decision I would not want to make without having the full picture.
Click to expand...

My grandfather who fought the Germans thought very highly of them after getting to know them after the war. He said he met very few who were not good men. I have ancestors who were German soldiers(Some SS) in that war and I know they went on to have families and live productive lives afterwards which is why Ekin's remarks offended me. I also have Russian ancestors who served the Red Army. I guess they are evil by association because they were not capitalist?
Click to expand...

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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He deserved to die because he fought for the Germans as a successful tank commander? I have not heard something so foolish for awhile; that sort of logic is idiotic, backwards and hateful.

He served his country, and he served it damn well by the looks of it, that doesn't mean you need to admire his high number of kills, but it demands respect just as you should give to all combatants for how they fought.

Its a shame that people like Wittmann, Yamamoto, Rommel and von Kluge didnt survive the war; as it would have been so interesting to read their memoirs.

Heh.. they are scratching your paint job, Helmut!

Totenkopf, May 16, 2010

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cbiwv said:

GrandsonofAMarine said:

As a combat veteran myself there is such a thing as humility. And since you have never been on the field of battle I would suggest YOU never lecture me again in this sort of manner. I don't mind if another vet does it but you have not earned that right. This is a forum. I was not lecturing Ekins. He is not present on this forum. Your post suggests you are a very angry person with a inability to understand that Wittman too was a human being.
Click to expand...

As an American, I have the right to speak my mind.

I appreciate your view of life coming from a veteran, but I think you simply miss the point as does Mehar. Wittman was a soldier for a murderous regime. Hence, he deserved to die because he represented a THREAT to all.

This isn't some war game, sir, its was a WAR that destroyed MILLIONS of lives--civilians and soldiers alike. I am watching a movie about Anne Frank right this minute. That story alone makes me feel no pity for any person of Nazi Germany. The soldier and civilian alike deserved what they got.

Hell yeah, I am angry. Angry about how Germans could lead themselves to do such awful things for no reason. Angry that the world stood by and allowed Hitler to do this. Angry at the utter waste of 50 million lives. Angry at war. Angry that we even need a military.

I don't know how much you have read about Nazi Germany other than the miltary affairs, but this was a ghastly country. These men--no, these animals--took the country of Beethoven and Bach, of lederhosen and schniztel and used itd great potential to wage ruthless, aggressive war on mankind.

Micheal Wittman was a man simply doing his job, that is correct.But no matter his bravery or skill as a tanker, it is still an undeniable fact that his job was to KILL AMERICANS.

Sorry, but I have no sorrow for such people. He made the decision to be a warrior. He suffered the consequences of that decision.
Click to expand...

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

GrandsonofAMarine, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 New Member

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GrandsonofAMarine said:

cbiwv said:

As an American, I have the right to speak my mind.

I appreciate your view of life coming from a veteran, but I think you simply miss the point as does Mehar. Wittman was a soldier for a murderous regime. Hence, he deserved to die because he represented a THREAT to all.

This isn't some war game, sir, its was a WAR that destroyed MILLIONS of lives--civilians and soldiers alike. I am watching a movie about Anne Frank right this minute. That story alone makes me feel no pity for any person of Nazi Germany. The soldier and civilian alike deserved what they got.

Hell yeah, I am angry. Angry about how Germans could lead themselves to do such awful things for no reason. Angry that the world stood by and allowed Hitler to do this. Angry at the utter waste of 50 million lives. Angry at war. Angry that we even need a military.

I don't know how much you have read about Nazi Germany other than the miltary affairs, but this was a ghastly country. These men--no, these animals--took the country of Beethoven and Bach, of lederhosen and schniztel and used itd great potential to wage ruthless, aggressive war on mankind.

Micheal Wittman was a man simply doing his job, that is correct.But no matter his bravery or skill as a tanker, it is still an undeniable fact that his job was to KILL AMERICANS.

Sorry, but I have no sorrow for such people. He made the decision to be a warrior. He suffered the consequences of that decision.
Click to expand...

You might want to do some real research instead of watching Hollywood propaganda. There are reasons Germany started the war. I'm not justifying their actions but you sir have some serious issues.
Click to expand...

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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Mehar said:

GrandsonofAMarine said:

So it's ok for people to die, as long as they aren't on "our side"? They might have families of their own, finished high school with plans to start a family and become a doctor only to be conscripted into the army days later. The plans are put on a permanent hold when his life is ended by a bullet to head, but it's fair right? Hitler started the war so it's only fair as many Germans are killed as possible in retaliation? But damn that kid to hell if in the process he takes even one of "our guys" with him, right? But what if he survived the war, went back to college, became a doctor and made contributions to his field like Felix Wankel? That is a very ignorant statement, all nations had their great fighters who were doing what they had to do, shoot the other side! War is a horrible thing that becomes even more tragic when conscription is involved.

As for the "oath", Wittmann in his later military career did indeed become a member of the S.S. from what I can find. However, oaths were always given to the leader of a nation and in most countries still are today. After an oath is taken, how many people truly live by it?

I also don't know how you can basically spit on this mans tank career like this just because he fought for Germany. The Germany many of these men knew of when they fought is not the Germany we know of post war. Various enemies became friends post battle, many of these friendships were either taken to the grave or still last today.

As for Mr. Ekins, I don't agree with his views on the military much either but I respect his service. While Germany did indeed commit atrocities during the war, Mr. Ekins was most likely shown footage that was propaganda in nature to drum up war support. At the same time, in Germany the government was showing films like Ohm Kruger which showed the British committing atrocities during the Boer War. Those who "bought it" would either be in for a big surprise when meeting their enemy or carry these views for the rest of their lives.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, war is multifaceted as are the people who fight in them regardless of nationality, gender, etc. Especially for those of us who are removed, it's disrespectful to say someone deserves to die when we were never in a position where we were forced to take another persons life. Was Wittmann's life worth taking? Unless he would run a concentration camp on weekends or have target practices on civilians during lunch hour, I doubt it, but even then it's a decision I would not want to make without having the full picture.
Click to expand...

It is WAR, not some abstraction. Wittmann KILLED PEOPLE. WHy is okay for him kill and not to be killed?

He knew the rules when he put on the uniform. He decided to wage aggressive war for a nation lead by murderous thugs.

Men like Wittmann knew what they were doing.They made a conscious decision to fight for terrible reasons.They fought to control and dominate other countries. That is indisputable.

The apologizing I see here for German soldiers is simply bizarre. it's like you guys refuse to see what the Germans were doing.

Wittmann was a human who did have a family. In that sense, his death is a tragedy. BUT he made a conscious decision to make war upon others for no reason.

Micheal WIttmann had control over his destiny as did all Germans No one forces you to make war upon innocent nations. No one forced the Germans to give the Nazis 32.7 of the vote in the elections of November of 1932. These were conscious decisions made by adults.

They deserve whatever happens to them. That is something that every country--USA included--should remember.Indeed, every PERSON should take heed.
Click to expand...

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

GrandsonofAMarine, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 New Member

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GrandsonofAMarine said:

Mehar said:

It is WAR, not some abstraction. Wittmann KILLED PEOPLE. WHy is okay for him kill and not to be killed?

He knew the rules when he put on the uniform. He decided to wage aggressive war for a nation lead by murderous thugs.

Men like Wittmann knew what they were doing.They made a conscious decision to fight for terrible reasons.They fought to control and dominate other countries. That is indisputable.

The apologizing I see here for German soldiers is simply bizarre. it's like you guys refuse to see what the Germans were doing.

Wittmann was a human who did have a family. In that sense, his death is a tragedy. BUT he made a conscious decision to make war upon others for no reason.

Micheal WIttmann had control over his destiny as did all Germans No one forces you to make war upon innocent nations. No one forced the Germans to give the Nazis 32.7 of the vote in the elections of November of 1932. These were conscious decisions made by adults.

They deserve whatever happens to them. That is something that every country--USA included--should remember.Indeed, every PERSON should take heed.
Click to expand...

You think this man looked at his cause as being evil? Was our cause in Vietnam just supporting a corrupt regime? There is no such thing as a clean war.
Click to expand...

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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cbiwv said:

GrandsonofAMarine said:

You might want to do some real research instead of watching Hollywood propaganda. There are reasons Germany started the war. I'm not justifying their actions but you sir have some serious issues.
Click to expand...

I have a mind to return the personal attacks, but I'll refrain. Let me just say that as of yet you haven't written any post that says you know a damn thing about WWII.

I have read plenty, my friend. Two college courses on Nazi Germany as well as having read dozens of books--including Mein Kampf.

You simply have no idea of what you speak of. Germany had no justification for invading Czechslovakia, Poland, Holland, Belgium, France, North Africa, Greece, Malta, the Baltics, and Russia. No reason.

As some have pointed out, the German whining over the Versailles Treaty was much bluster and little substance. It was not as harsh as the Brest-Litovsk treaty the Germans imposed upon Russia in 1918 or even the one they imposed upon France after the Franco-Prussian War.

The stab in the back was a complete myth invented by the German militarists to explain how a country that was still on foreign soil when it surrendered, lost.

The Germans industrialized mass murder. They waged war with no justifiable reason. Yet, here you sit defending them. Simply amazing.
Click to expand...

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

GrandsonofAMarine, May 16, 2010

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cbiwv said:

GrandsonofAMarine said:

You think this man looked at his cause as being evil? Was our cause in Vietnam just supporting a corrupt regime? There is no such thing as a clean war.
Click to expand...

The NVA was every bit as cruel as the South Vietnamese. That was truly a war in which there were no good guys.

Doesn't it bother you that he saw nothing wrong with invading countries that had done nothing to Germany???Doesn't it bother you that millions of Germans died to advance the goals of and protect, a regime that was responsible for taking Henry Ford's assembly line and using the concept to kill millions?

You must think little of Wittmann's intelligence than, because there is no way a person with even an average IQ could have not thought about the why Germany was at war.
Click to expand...

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

GrandsonofAMarine, May 16, 2010

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Fury 1991 New Member

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You keep generalizing about Germany and its ruthless leader. I am talking about the man Wittman who was a human being who felt he was fighting for a just cause to better the circumstances for his nation which was going through difficult times. The unemployment rate was horrible. People could not take care of or feed their families. The Nazis gave people a reason to hope. This being before the war started. It was obvious circumstances were improving under their rule and it appeared to be a worthy cause to fight for them seeing as life had been so difficult for so long in a nation wrecked by poverty and unemployment. Actually, I know quite a bit about the war but the majority of it has already been presented by other posters who have been on this site for almost a decade.

Fury 1991, May 16, 2010

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