Protest of Arizona's immigration law planned for Saturday in Phoenix

Hi Andrew, Clint,

Andrew, I do remember that famous painting which showed Attucks being his by a shot or two from a British musket at the Boston Massacre. I remember thinking the first time I sa w it, that why would the British be shooting a black person? Its partly do to that painting, that made me get seriously interested in reading about the events that happened before the war-during and after the war.

Clint, True they couldnt vote but, did you knwo that a black man was electedas either a Mayor or a Congressman-or some high political office-shortly after the war ended. I dont remember what year it was but ths was back during Colonial times. I dont recall is name either bu, I accidentally came across an artical about this Gent when I was doing some research on something else just last week. Now I wished I had writen down the info on this Gent. Though blacks were not allowed to vote-they were allowed to seek and be in political office.

 

Victor

I think you can tell from my post that I have not bought into the emotional argument that is cast about recklessly when the topic of slavery is brought up. In fact, I have looked at it very closely. Yes, you are right, you can draw similarities to a great many things such as employing "illegals" for low pay and hard work. One could probably make (and I have seen it done) an argument for prisoners who are forced to work. In truth, anything can be "twisted" to fit an argument.

It should also be noted that after the civil war, there were in fact many slaves who didn't want to leave the farms where they worked because they were in fact treated very well. I often wondered what it must have been like to have had your freedom "won" and yet have no place to go.......To every argument there will always be two side.

Yes, the role of slavery, while deplorable to many of us, has also been at the epicenter of some of mankind's greatest moments. The list is as culturally varied as it is chronologically expansive:

Benedict the Moor (Italian Saint)
Saint Callixtus I (Pope)
Aesop (Greek Poet)
Diocletian (Roman Emperor)
Enrique of Malacca (Interpreter for Magellan)
George Washington Carver (Scientist / Inventor / Educator)
John Smith (Soldier / Author)
Lovisa von Burghausen (Swedish Noble)
Marcus Tullius Tiro (Roman Author)
Nero Hawley (Continental Soldier / Valley Forge)
Saint Patrick (Missionary)
Spartacus (Gladiator)
William Ellison (Freed slave who became largest slave owner in SC)

I think you get the point. Slavery, has many faces, but even from such questionable roots can come great accomplishments. A man's life is not defined by the adversity that afflicts him, but what he does when faced with that affliction.

Andrew

 

Victor

I understand perfectly well what you are saying. I agree, that a NM drivers license does not equal citizenship. Actually, no Drivers License does. What I was trying to explain was that a police officer who stops you is trying to determine who you are, they are not trying to establish citizenship. That is not the roll of law enforcement. HOWEVER, an officer who stops you is going to progress his investigation based on the information he receives from you.

1. If I stop you for a vehicle violation I am going to ask for ID and registration information. In a perfect world they match, a computer check confirms, and you are on your way with a summons or warning.

2. The paper does not match or the records are not in the computer I may make the decision to take you in for further investigation to determine your ID. Understand this, a summons is in lieu of an arrest. You only get a summons when your ID is established. If not you can, and most likely will, be brought in and processed.

3. If no determination can be made or the ID is questionable you will be held and processed. At that point, if there are enough indicators, the police may (and probably should) check with INS.

There was a time when getting a drivers license actually required establishing your true identity. I may be wrong, but from your post it sounds as if New Mexico was not so much concerned with this as they were about "safe drivers." To be honest, that sounds like the law being changed to accommodate, rather than being enforced.

The reason why we are in the state we are in now is because we have been continually "accommodating" rather than being vigilant about border security and enforcement of existing laws.

This is nothing new by the way, this is a problem that is systemic in a multitude of political issues.

When you continue to try to make things easier on people, you can't say you don't understand when they keep coming back wanting more and more.

We need to understand that people can choose to pursue the things they wish, but that society does not have to wholly accept them and alter their laws to accommodate these actions.

Andrew

 

Hunstsman, I thank you for your patience and for listening to me and researching responses, .....I applaud the job of law enforcement as it seems to have been successful in preventing the march and demonstrations in Phoenix from becoming violent as I was fearful may develop. When I saw the aerial shots of the sardine packed streets in Phoenix I was shocked. Thank you for the list provided on slavery and I am glad we have at least progressed against that in our country today. As an American I am proud when we progress and believe we can only progress together when united in the effort as a country as was proved in WWII. I will now be thinking about our Holiday to come and the many I will be remembering for their many sacrifices for us all to have what we have. To fully appreciate them we must have hope, to fully appreciate them we must have a spirit to make things better, to fully appreciate them we must be thankful for those freedoms that have been maintained for us and also we must try not to repeat mistakes of the past. I will be thinking thankfully of them and a tip of my hat to T.A. Gardner for his moderation of this thread!

 

Hehe,he is doing a good job and he probably bribed you, for you to say that

 

The Arizona law mirrors federal law. Under the Obama administration, much of the illegal immigration enforcement has been neglected. Brilliant comments by rocket scientist and Homeland Security Director Janet Napoletano refer to the border as 'safer than ever' or 'crossing the border is not a crime per se'

The nonsense about Americans won't do that job is tiresome. Get the generations and generations off the welfare rolls, put the money towards training(ie teach a man to Fish...) and instant labor force ready and willing.
many americans will do any job.....ever see the sad sight of will work for food? That should not happen in this country and should be addressed first before attending to those here illegally.

More garbage about Comprehensive Immigration Reform, code for Amnesty, is utter foolishness. A non citizen, guest worker program, for illegals that have committed no other crime than entry, after the border is secured, is a sound strategy. A biometric card issued to the illegal alien applicant for work and non resident alien status, a fee levied and info gathered. For this concession the removal of the anchor baby provision and deportation for those non participants in the program as well as no voting rights. For normal citizenship, the illegals go to the back of the line to respect those hardworking individuals following the rules for citizenship.

Those who oppose the Arizona Law usually have not read it or they are part of the neosocialist machine trying to legalize the illegals under Comprehensive Immigration Reform, again amnesty, to try and change the voting block to reflect Chavez rather than Reagan.

The truly ridiculous thing is that almost all of us have been stopped one time or another and asked for our license and registration....we think I hope he'll give me a warning or crap another ticket, not am I being racially profiled.

In 40+ states it is law that you carry ID.

Commit a crime, be prepared to do the time or in the case of Arizona, be rightfully deported if you are there illegally.

It is foolish to expect hardworking taxpayers to pay for cheating criminals. No one likes it when you are waiting and someone cuts ahead of you. It is even worse to have the cutter say BTW pay for my fare, education, meals, and healthcare.

In closing, I will state the great words of Bill Shatner as Captain Kirk in reference to the Democrat run Congress and the Obama Administraion.

"We grow tired of your foolishness."

 

Biak

Amen !!

I guess that is the thing most Americans are missing, it is not a matter of pointing fingers at one party, to the exclusion of the other, but at pointing the finger at them as a collective group. Neither party has clean hands in all of this. But they foster this "us vs them (the other party)" mindset so that we don't realize it is actually US versus Them !!!!!!!

 

Interesting but I again say it would be better to do something "State or Federal" at the border, do something "State or Federal" with the capitalist demand for cheap workers that draws them in, do something "State or Federal" that causes real reduction in Black Marketing, but the Arizona law is more of the old failing thinking that will raise Black market profits, allow Coyotes higher fees for transport of illegals, and will really only be a deeper inconvenience for law enforcement and people who look immigrant but are here legally. It only gives lip service to actually doing something about employers and their demand for immigrants. The concept of the officer "turning things over to the feds once these illegals are detected" simply falls into the already successful plans of capitalists who simply apply a little "Political pressure" which most often succeeds in the release or moderation of pressures placed on the guilty immigrants. Now they are quoting studies that say the real crime is actually less in many of these Arizona cities than what has been exaggerated as facts along with scapegoating of problems by Arizona's leadership onto the immigrant groups. I believe all the attacks against public school curiculum and even the legal papers of a setting president is ample proof that there is more of some kind of agenda going on here than just an illegals problem. I think that is what has made it so popular in "like minded" peoples all across the country.

 

Hi V/ The demand for illegal workers mostly comes from hugh coorporations like-Wal-Mart. If and when the uS Govt would start talink on big businesses like WM on the illegal workers issue and start actually enforcing laws-levying hefty fines againt them for hiring illegals-you cna bet your boots on teh fact that they would start getting rid of these people faster than a match could ignite a puddle of gasoline. Its ALL about money, friend. ;-))

 

It is a lot more widespread than Walmart, most major oil companies that manage large oil fields have subcontracted a major portion of what they do in their oil and gas fields and those with the contract are not unlike a company such as Trans Ocean which we are now hearing about in the Gulf are sometimes 95% dependent on foreigners to fill the positions. Even the "high tech" sectors are now being filled with these workers. It is all about money is right but you don't know how dependent our industries now are. Baby boomers don't have enough babies dude. They don't even want Americans who will probably want some kind of health plan. Most construction of any kind has a high percentage of these workers as well. A simple call to the the INS is all that is usually necessary to "reduce" pressures of enforcement of illegal immigration law so they can keep their illegal immigrant worker. These big corporations own the politicians completely.

 

Say Victor, not only in the fields you mentioned but the meat processing business is a MAJOR employer of the "undocumented" workers. When ever it seems that they might start loosing money on them, they somehow manage to get raided by INS, and then a whole new group is recruited to replace those who were sent home or imprisoned.

That is also a main source of the problem, these people take jobs at rates American citizens wouldn't touch on a bet. Low pay, no benefits, no overtime pay. The wages are "great" compared to those from their home nations, but way too low to draw in Americans to fill them.

 

Hi Guys, I realize they are in both those and other industries too. I was using Wm as a prime example of whats been being said all along ;-))

 

That is a myth perpetuated by the open borders crowd.

 

Would you work for less than $7.00 an hour for over 8 hrs a day with no overtime? They do. BTW, I am not a member of the "open borders" crowd, nor do I agree with the concept.

 

Since it is unlikely that you look for "kosher" products, the Agriprocessor’s plant closing in Iowa probably wouldn’t affect you "Biak". I don’t really believe that they are a sub-division of Cargil, but those plants/businesses are so interlocked/inbred sometimes it is hard to figure out who runs what. A guy never can tell what Archer Daniel Midland has its fingers into.

See:

Agriprocessors Inc. News - The New York Times

But if you are going to try to boycott Cargil, you better add Swift, Tyson, and Foster Farms to your list. Unless they have "cleaned up their acts" in the past couple of years (since 2008) they all use underage, undocumented, and illegals in their operations. That doesn’t leave too many national brands to buy from.

See:

Meat: Swift, AgriProcessors, Smithfield - Rural Migration News | Migration Dialogue

This article was too early in saying that no Agriprocessor executives were charged. The above link shows that one (at least) has been.