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what if hitler captures Moscow

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Eastern Front & Balka' started by Ironcross, Mar 16, 2006.

  1. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    LOL Kai :D

    No.9
     
  2. Panzer6

    Panzer6 Member

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    As its true the Soviets were in the Ukraine, they were too disorganized, had bad leadership, Luftwaffe bombing them, German forces finally moving south after moscow captured to help, Army group south delaying them from attacing, them getting into position to attack. All this would lead to a premature attack ending in disastor or attacking into a reinforced area and being slaughtered. Either way, they could not attack North into the flanks of army group center effectivly without putting themselves in even greater danger then they are making.
     
  3. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    If the Soviet situation at the South/Centre Army Groups was so bad, I wonder why Hitler took the trouble of ordering the move South and thereby likely loosing the entire campaign.

    May I address you to Hitler's Directive no. 33, Jul 19, 1941?

    He says (my emphasis):

    "1. The second series of battles in the East has ended, along the whole front, with the breach of the Stalin Line and the deep thrust of the panzer forces. In the area of Army Group Center, mopping up of the strong enemy forces which still remain between the motorized formations will still require considerable time.

    The northern flank of Army Group South is restricted in its freedom of movement and effectiveness by the fortress of Kiev and the Russian 5th Army in its rear. "

    No peace of cake by his own admission.

    Full text here :
    http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct33.html

    If you proceed to the Supplement to the Directive above ( see http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct33a.html ) then it clearly begins to look a bit megalomaniacal, doesn't it?

    "2. Central Part of the Eastern Front:
    After mopping-up operations around Smolensk and on the southern flank, Army Group Center, whose infantry formations drawn from both its armies are strong enough for the purpose, will defeat such enemy forces as remain between Smolensk and Moscow, by an advance on the left flank if possible. It will then capture Moscow.

    Panzer Group 3 will come under temporary command of Army Group North to secure its right flank and to surround the enemy in the Leningrad area.

    For the further task of thrusting forward to the Volga, the mobile forces of Panzer Group 3 will probably be once more available."

    Ok, do a prolonged mopping up operation and just walk by and conquer Moscow, while the entire Panzer complement is diverted to Leningrad and Kiev. Oh, now that you are at it, remember to run to the Volga too! For all that is sacred, the man had a different notion of reality than seems normal! :rolleyes:
     
  4. Panzer6

    Panzer6 Member

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    Hitler was a paranoid man as the war progressed(not as much as Stalin though) and he felt that his strategy of Blitzkrieg was way to risky even though they proved right. Also, the German Generals wanted to continue to Moscow but only Hitler wanted the attack on Kiev. I think the generals knew more about the situation than Hitler.
     
  5. Richard

    Richard Expert

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    What and have all those Soviets in the rear no sorry Kiev had to come first no option.
     
  6. Richard

    Richard Expert

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  7. rifleman1987

    rifleman1987 Member

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    ITS QUITE UNLICKELY THAT THE GERMANS WOULD EVEN GET TO THE GATES OF MOSCOW THE RED ARMY WAS THROWING EVERYTHING AT THE GERMANS AND DIDNT CARE HOW MANY THEY LOST ITS JUST LAMB TO THE SLAUGTER BUT EVEN IF THEY DID IT WOULD PROBABLY ANOTHER LIKE STALINGRAD BUT EVEN BLOODIER AFTER THE BATTLE IT WOULD PROBABLY OPEN UP VAST HOLE IN TH E GERMAN FRONT LINE IN GIVING THE CENTER ARMY GROUP WOULD BE RETREATING QUICKLY THE RUSSIANS WOULD SIMPLY EXPLOIT THIS AND TEAR THE GERMAN FRONLINE APART.
     
  8. john1761

    john1761 Member

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    Why do people assume that if the germans beat the russians they couldn't hold it. Most of the USSR was not pop. by ethnic russians. Only the power of the party held these far off provincesand before the forces of the Czar. The Germans could have done the same. With Nazis officals controling the means of production and food the local would be very controlable.
     
  9. Miller

    Miller Member

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    Defending attacks from the comforts of Moscow during the Russian winter is quite different from attacking Moscow from the steppe during the Russian winter. The casualties due to frostbite would have been considerably lower if landsers were spending their time in cellars rather than foxholes.
     
  10. john1761

    john1761 Member

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    Cold cuts both ways . As seen in the 41 Sovir=et counter offensives when the Germans were dug in they were able to handle a soviet winter attack. With Moscow , Tula and other cities around Moscow the Germans would have been able to weather the red storm.
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The Russians did start to destroy anything that could be used by the invading Germans very soon after Barbarossa started so I´d not be that sure there´d be much warm places to sleep in even in cities.

    Also if the Hitler order worked in winter 1941-42 then why didn´t it work later on?
     
  12. Miller

    Miller Member

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    The city may not be as warm as one would like but I'd be willing to wager anyone would prefer all the nooks and crannies of a city as opposed to flat windy steppe.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    From the Dutch volunteer division book "From Leningrad to Berlin" on Italian troops and their horrible fate. ( I write this as I remember it )

    " The Italians were a bunch of charming guys but during the winter because of the cold they left their post unguarded. One night the Cossacks attacked them, took them outside and threw water on them. Later on we found hundreds of them as frozen statues in the snow fields."

    What a horrible way to die...
     
  14. Machine Gun Nest 1985.

    Machine Gun Nest 1985. Member

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  15. Miller

    Miller Member

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    Cossack troops were definitely a menacing bunch.
     
  16. Hands

    Hands Member

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    Who are the cossacks ? horse mounted troops ?
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  18. ScreamingEagleMG42

    ScreamingEagleMG42 Member

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    God knows what happened to them in the gulags.
     
  19. Miller

    Miller Member

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    Oddly enough, they talk about the Cossacks in James Bond: Golden Eye.
     

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