only if hitler let his generals fight the war

Er, Saratov is 200 miles up river, isn't your plan a bit far-fetched (litterally!)? Besides, getting to Saratov seems even worse than getting to Stalingrad, the incoming rail line comes from the NW, useless to the Germans. At least you would have to give up the Caucasus thrust, but then you are giving up the oil (what the Germans would do when they got to the oil country is beyond me, but that's another matter!).

The way I wargamed it in the past, Saratov came *after* Stalingrad, not before. Assuming there was an "after Stalingrad"

 

I do not know what the German strategy in regards to this region was originally supposed to be. I have read many accounts here and elsewhere that the German generals only made taking Stalingrad an objective on Hitler's insistance. I was trying to figure out what they would have done instead. Does anyone know?

I know Saratov was a long way north but I was looking for a location with rail service and bridges since the Volga is so wide. It seemed like an ideal place to try to put a stopper in the movement on the river and with rail service a place to try to maintain the difficult task of resupply.

 

There you are quite right. To stop the traffic on the Volga - and a good part of the Caucusus oil came North by barge - there was no need to take a big city, possibly a survivable defensive position with the ability to fire direct across the river.

I see a couple of tactical problems like counter-battery fire etc, but in any case there was this big city on the river with the big name too, an excellent force assembly point. It would be a major thing, not just sitting a couple of 15cm batteries "down by the riverside".

As a matter of fact I never even saw this idea raised, so there must have been some objections that would have appeared obvious to the German command.

The problem with Saratov was getting there, across an empty steppe, and then getting supplies there with no railway.

 

hitler refused Erwin Rommel's retreat-and-counterattack strategy and lost North Africa. if he let Rommel do what he wants, Germans can retreat from Stalingrad and halt and let the Desert Fox attack Stalingrad from the back in the summer to cut all supplies. then counterattack from all sides.
that is what i think

 

Rommels retreat and counterattack strategy??

Rommels battles was with kampfgruppen attacking the inland flank, and others infiltrating between the Commonwealth brigade groups... Over and over and over again.

Rommel was daring and agressive, but as an army commander a walking disaster.

 

Pardon me, but what does Rommel have to do wit Stalingrad? And attack with what and when?

 

This kind of what-ifs have been extensively discussed over the years in these boards.

The German generals were simply the most over-rated of WWII, because their Prussian inflexibility made of them nothing but complete incompetents in some cases.

It was NOT Hitler, but the professional élite of the General Staff who screwed things up most of the time.

Who failed to destroy the French and British at Dunkirk because halting the Panzers? It was Von Rundstedt, not Hitler.

Who could not even imagine that France could be defeated and that a plan 'B' would be necessary against Great Britain? Halder and the OKH.

Who designed the pipe-dream 'Operation Seelöwe', without any regard for logistics, training, all arms co-operation, adequate tactics…? Definately not Hitler.

Stalingrad is nothing but the main example of Hitler's generals idiocy…

No one has mentioned the lousy intelligence system the Germans had, the many miscalculations they had when dealing with Soviet attacks all along 1943, 1944 and 1945, the complete disregard for logistics throughout the war, the waste of resources in every possible branch and way… the list goes on. All the mistakes the German generals made in 1914-1918 were there once more in 1939-1945, only bigger and added with the totalitarian philosophy of anti-utilitarism.

 

Fried, I see you're alive and well!

 

good point

 

If the Generals were let loose, then Guderian would have gone to Moscow in 1941.

 

Pardom information please.

 

And no one would have ever seen him or his men again.

 

Good point.

 

gobble, gobble

 

Ice, I believe that the germans had these goals in seizing Stalingrad :

- cut a vital logistical knot (East/West – South/North)

- symbolic of this city and its name

- pull the Red Army in a massive fight to inflict it a final blow,

- destroy the huge industrial center Stalingrad was at this time.

Of course, I’m not saying they were right or wrong, nor they could have bypassed Stalingrad, but this is what they had in mind.

 

I especially liked the third item. It certainly worked, though not in the way it was expected to

 

I wonder what the Generals would've done if that last 10% of Stalingrsd were taken.
6th Army was drained, both men and supplies.
They were in no position to do anything.

 

they would probrably be taken captive because they would most likely surrender...

 

6th Army was busy fighting in Stalingrad and 10% would not have changed anything as it was the flanks that gave in during the Soviet offensive. And Hitler did not let the 6th army come out of the trap.

Later on the same kind of thing happened to the Red Army at Kharkov as the flanks grew long, men tired and supplies were not received enough due to the distance.

 

Yeah Za Rodinu, this 3rd goal is the same story all over again :

- over confidence

- the myth that they could pull the Red Army into a decisive battle, fix/encircle opposing forces, eliminate, watch the county collapse, avoid protracted war, trink schnaps

It didn’t work at Moscow, it didn’t work at Stalingrad, but this time, Red Army was able to mass more units to counter attack in Stalingrad area than it had in Moscow area (*), Axe’s forces in this area were not as good as they were at Moscow (germans’ allies) and the Red Army had improved.

(*)- off topic : by the way I can’t find my source back, but IIRC, the Soviet 1941 winter counterstrike had them in numerical disavantage compared to germans. Couls someone confirm and point source ?