Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Proposed: The 20th Century can be seen as a series of wars against Communism.

Discussion in 'Eastern Europe' started by OpanaPointer, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,332
    Likes Received:
    5,696
    Proposed: The 20th Century can be seen as a series of wars against Communism.

    I've been playing with this idea for a while. What do you think?
     
  2. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    14,290
    Likes Received:
    2,607
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    That's an interesting proposition. I guess if we begin with the 1905 attempt at revolution in Russia, through 1917, that would mean that Russia at least was battling communism since then. I'm not sure WW1 qualifies until after 1917, since the heads of the European states were related to each other at the outset, and I'm not sure the communists in any country were interested in a war yet. Once the communists were victorious, the whole ball game changed.
    1. Allied intervention in Russia in support of the whites in 1918-19 certainly qualifies.
    2. Attempts to instigate similar revolutions in Germany and elsewhere in the 1920's helped lead to fascist and ultra-nationalist parties.
    3. The Nazis were nominally aimed at preventing communist takeover of Germany. Hitler's goal of uniting with GB to this end stands out.
    4. US and British recognition during WW2 that Stalin was an ally of convenience and presented some measure of danger later.
    5. Post WW2 UN actions to limit communist expansion (Korea, etc.)
    6. Truman's "containment" policy in SE Asia and the backing of espoused anti-communist elements.
    7. The Berlin blockade.
    8. Cuban missile crisis.
    9. China - Taiwan (especially Quemoy and Matsu problems in the 50's and 60s).
    10. Soviet Bloc/NATO standoff through the 90's.

    Given this list from the top of my head, I would be inclined to support your proposition. I'm guessing that with more thought, and the input of others, we can add to this list. I'm curious to see other points of view.
     
  3. Mussolini

    Mussolini Gaming Guru WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2000
    Messages:
    5,739
    Likes Received:
    563
    Location:
    Festung Colorado
    There is a book (The World at War - i think) that stipulates that the 20th Century can be seen as a power shift from West (Europe) to East (Asia). I'm more inclined to agree with it rather then a 'Battling Communism' shift as Communism wasn't deemed a threat until post-WW2.
     
  4. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    14,290
    Likes Received:
    2,607
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    While I agree with the first part of the statement, I think the second part is a bit off. Witness the 1870 Communards in France (read Marx's The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon). Marx's Manifesto was written with the thinking of the 1848 revolutions in mind. Communist elements scared the established states beginning in the 19th Century.
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,461
    Likes Received:
    2,207
    In a way, yes, but then again how is it possible that there were actually "millions of communists" in countries that could be classified as communist hating countries? It´s not possible to say that only the USSR was the enemy or the Eastern Bloc etc. The border for the battle is not between countries and thus the "enemy" might be your friend,actually...in that case are you the enemy if your friend is??
     
  6. Not One Step Back

    Not One Step Back Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    7
    I would definately say that the main driving force through the 20th Century was extreme politics, both left and right.
    The end of World War two marked the end of any hope for a Fascist government and the fall of the eastern bloc in the 1990s marked the end of any hopes of a successful communist government.
    Now we're in the 21st century, extreme politics is not that driving force anymore. Maybe it's religion?
     
  7. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,332
    Likes Received:
    5,696
    Interviewing Date 12/24-29/39
    Survey #180-A Question #3b
    Asked of those who responded in the affirmative: Which of the following do you consider more important for the Dies Committee to investigate — Communist activities in this country, or Nazi activities in this country?
    Communist activities................. 70%
    Nazi activities....................... 30
    Twenty-five per cent expressed no opinion.
     
  8. syscom3

    syscom3 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,240
    Likes Received:
    183
    I think Opana is on to something.

    Except for WW1, many of the conflicts of the 20th century has indeed been a fight with or between communists.

    The Mideast wars would be the exception. Even if Russia and the US stayed out of it, Israel and the Arabs would still find a way to go to war with each other.
     
  9. ULITHI

    ULITHI Ace

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,904
    Likes Received:
    424
    Location:
    Albuquerque, New Mexico
    This is indeed a very interesting idea.

    Let me know when we start asking who won the wars! No more Soviets, but we still have China, although they are not totally communist...hmmmmm.
     
  10. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,332
    Likes Received:
    5,696
    Of course, to avoid monocausality, we should say "The 20th Century can be seen largely as a series of wars against Communism." Moderating the absolute in the subject line.
     
  11. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,130
    Likes Received:
    2,497
    I think we see communism as the "Evil Empire" due to the fact that those were the conflicts that directly affected us. But I also found on the web that there have been over 160 "wars" in the last Century. A large percentage being 'Civil' and "Colonial". Numerous Countries fighting amongst their own population and others attempting to retain hold of "conquered" territories. I agree our main concern up until the mid 70's was Communism but also point out while we (call us the Western civilization), were involved in places like Vietnam, the Eastern and Asian peoples were fully engulfed in their own conflicts. I've attached a link and list showing it isn't always about 'us'.
    Wars and casualties of the 20th Century
    Wars and Genocides of the 20th Century

    by Piero Scaruffi 160 million people died in wars during the 20th century
    (See also 1900: A century of genocides)
    [SIZE=-1]TM, ®, Copyright © 2009 Piero Scaruffi All rights reserved.[/SIZE]

    1860-65: American civil war (360,000)
    1886-1908: Belgium-Congo Free State (8 million)
    1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000)
    1899-03: Colombian civil war (120,000)
    1899-02: Philippines vs USA (20,000)
    1900-01: Boxer rebels against Russia, Britain, France, Japan, USA against rebels (35,000)
    1903: Ottomans vs Macedonian rebels (20,000)
    1904: Germany vs Namibia (65,000)
    1904-05: Japan vs Russia (150,000)
    1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000)
    1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
    1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000)
    1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000)
    1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million)
    1915-20: the Ottoman empire slaughters 500,000 Assyrians
    1916-23: the Ottoman empire slaughters 350,000 Greek Pontians and 480,000 Anatolian Greeks
    1914-18: World War I (20 million)
    1916: Kyrgyz revolt against Russia (120,000)
    1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
    1917-19: Greece vs Turkey (45,000)
    1919-21: Poland vs Soviet Union (27,000)
    1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
    1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
    1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (10 million)
    1934: Mao's Long March (170,000)
    1936: Italy's invasion of Ethiopia (200,000)
    1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million)
    1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000)
    1937-45: Japanese invasion of China (500,000)
    1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
    1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million)
    1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000)
    1946-54: France-Vietnam war (600,000)
    1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million)
    1947: Taiwan's uprising against the Kuomintang (30,000)
    1948-1958: Colombian civil war (250,000)
    1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000)
    1949-: Indian Muslims vs Hindus (20,000)
    1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)
    1950-53: Korean war (3 million)
    1952-59: Kenya's Mau Mau insurrection (20,000)
    1954-62: French-Algerian war (368,000)
    1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million)
    1960-90: South Africa vs Africa National Congress (?)
    1960-96: Guatemala's civil war (200,000)
    1961-98: Indonesia vs West Papua/Irian (100,000)
    1961-2003: Kurds vs Iraq (180,000)
    1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo vs Portugal (?)
    1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
    1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir
    1965-66: Indonesian civil war (250,000)
    1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million)
    1966-: Colombia's civil war (31,000)
    1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000)
    1968-80: Rhodesia's civil war (?)
    1969-: Philippines vs New People's Army (40,000)
    1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000)
    1969-02: IRA - Norther Ireland's civil war (2,000)
    1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
    1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000)
    1972-: Philippines vs Muslim separatists (Moro Islamic Liberation Front, etc) (120,000)
    1972: Burundi's civil war (300,000)
    1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's civil war (30,000)
    1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
    1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
    1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
    1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000)
    1975-90: civil war in Lebanon (40,000)
    1975-87: Laos' civil war (184,000)
    1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)
    1976-83: Argentina's military regime (20,000)
    1976-93: Mozambique's civil war (900,000)
    1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000)
    1976-2005: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000)
    1977-92: El Salvador's civil war (75,000)
    1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000)
    1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
    1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (1 million)
    1980-92: Sendero Luminoso - Peru's civil war (69,000)
    1980-99: Kurds vs Turkey (35,000)
    1981-90: Nicaragua vs Contras (60,000)
    1982-90: Hissene Habre, Chad (40,000)
    1983-: Sri Lanka's civil war (70,000)
    1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
    1986-: Indian Kashmir's civil war (60,000)
    1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500)
    1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000)
    1988-2004: Somalia's civil war (550,000)
    1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000)
    1989-: Uganda vs Lord's Resistance Army (30,000)
    1991: Gulf War - large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000)
    1991-97: Congo's civil war (800,000)
    1991-2000: Sierra Leone's civil war (200,000)
    1991-2009: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000)
    1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000)
    1992-96: Tajikstan's civil war war (50,000)
    1992-96: Yugoslavian wars (260,000)
    1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000)
    1993-97: Congo Brazzaville's civil war (100,000)
    1993-2005: Burundi's civil war (200,000)
    1994: Rwanda's civil war (900,000)
    1995-: Pakistani Sunnis vs Shiites (1,300)
    1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (12,000)
    1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)
    1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000)
    1999: Kosovo's liberation war - NATO vs Serbia (2,000)
    2001-: Afghanistan's liberation war - USA & UK vs Taliban (40,000)
    2002-: Cote d'Ivoire's civil war (1,000)
    2003: Second Iraq-USA war - USA, UK and Australia vs Saddam Hussein (14,000)
    2003-09: Sudan vs JEM/Darfur (300,000)
    2003-: Iraq's civil war (60,000)
    2004-: Sudan vs SPLM & Eritrea (?)
    2004-: Yemen vs Shiite Muslims (?)
    2004-: Thailand vs Muslim separatists (3,700)
    Arab-Israeli wars
    • I (1947-49): 6,373 Israeli and 15,000 Arabs die
    • II (1956): 231 Israeli and 3,000 Egyptians die
    • III (1967): 776 Israeli and 20,000 Arabs die
    • IV (1973): 2,688 Israeli and 18,000 Arabs die
    • Intifada I (1987-92): 170 Israelis and 1,000 Palestinians
    • Intifada II (2000-03): 700 Israelis and 2,000 Palestinians
    • Israel-Hamas war (2008): 1,300 Palestinians
    Main sources:
    • Charny: Genocide - A Critical Bibliographic Review (1988)
    • Stephane Courtois: Black Book on Communism (1995)
    • Clodfelter: Warfare and Armed Conflicts (1992)
    • Elliot: Twentieth Century Book of the Dead (1972)
    • Bouthoul: A List of the 366 Major Armed Conflicts of the period 1740-1974, Peace Research (1978)
    • R.J. Rummel: Death by Government - Genocide and Mass Murder (1994)
    • Matt White's website
    • Several general textbooks of 20th century history
    Back to world news | Back to history
     
    TiredOldSoldier likes this.
  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,332
    Likes Received:
    5,696
    Biak, impressive lists. And I wonder in how many cases each side aligned themselves with a superpower?
     
  13. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,130
    Likes Received:
    2,497
    That's something I also wonder about. I do remember "we" made speeches and denounced the Genocide of Uganda, Somalia etc:, but do not recall 'doing' that much as far as supporting either side. I found another list of interesting U.S. involvement. Far fewer than the 160 plus.

    American History Timelines - Wars with American Involvement

    July 4, 1675 -
    August 12, 1676
    King Philip's War New England Colonies vs. Wampanoag, Narragansett, and Nipmuck Indians 1689-1697 King William's War The English Colonies vs. France 1702-1713 Queen Anne's War War of Spanish Succession) The English Colonies vs. France 1744-1748 King George's War (War of Austrian Succession) The French Colonies vs. Great Britain 1756-1763 French and Indian War (Seven Years War) The French Colonies vs. Great Britain 1759-1761 Cherokee War English Colonists vs. Cherokee Indians 1775-1783 American Revolution English Colonists vs. Great Britain 1798-1800 Franco-American Naval War United States vs. France 1801-1805; 1815 Barbary Wars United States vs. Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli 1812-1815 War of 1812 United States vs. Great Britain 1813-1814 Creek War United States vs. Creek Indians 1836 War of Texas Independence Texas vs. Mexico 1846-1848 Mexican-American War United States vs. Mexico 1861-1865 U.S. Civil War Union vs. Confederacy 1898 Spanish-American War United States vs. Spain

    1914-1918 World War I Triple Alliance: Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary vs. Triple Entente: Britain, France, and Russia. The United States joined on the side of the Triple Entente in 1917.
    1939-1945 World War II Axis Powers: Germany, Italy, Japan vs. Major Allied Powers: United States, Great Britain, France, and Russia 1950-1953 Korean War United States (as part of the United Nations) and South Korea vs. North Korea and Communist China 1960-1975 Vietnam War United States and South Vietnam vs. North Vietnam 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion United States vs. Cuba 1983 Grenada United States Intervention 1989 US Invasion of Panama
    United States vs. Panama 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War
    United States and Coalition Forces vs. Iraq 1995-1996 Intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina United States as part of NATO acted peacekeepers in former Yugoslavia 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan
    United States and Coalition Forces vs. the Taliban regime in Afghanistan to fight terrorism. 2003 Invasion of Iraq
    United States and Coalition Forces vs. Iraq Source: The New York Public Library Desk Reference, 3rd Edition.
     
  14. Rafael Boban

    Rafael Boban Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    5
    I have noticed you forgot to add 2 more wars...

    Croatian War for Independece:1991-1995 (over 25000 people killed)
    Bosnian War:1992-1995 (100,000–110,000 killed)
     
  15. Wikzardo

    Wikzardo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    2
    For me one of the most representative wars against/with communism in (very) early history is the Yugoslavian Crisis.
    Though it was a war for independence by Croats and others, it is important to say that bigger and stronger counties were involved. The Croats got help by America and Germany (old alliances??) and Yugoslavia by Russia.
     
  16. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    18,332
    Likes Received:
    5,696
    Gunther Rothenberg said something very similar one time. :cool:
     
    Wikzardo likes this.
  17. Wikzardo

    Wikzardo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    2
    Serbo-Croat war
    This site i found is quite interesting, for all who are interested....its also about Nazi Gemany and CCCP.
     
  18. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    452

    You are forgetting Turkey, still a major power in 1914, as well as all the minors, and Italy fought on the side of the Entente not the Alliance !!
    .
     
  19. Rafael Boban

    Rafael Boban Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    5
    well...we didint got any help at all...only thing we got was a embargo for buying weapons becouse we were "bad" guys....So yea...if you guys were helping it wouldnt take 4 years to end the war....Same with Bosnian war...

    America joined at the end of the war during the operation "Storm"...They didnt fight but we got ammo and everything we need...Germany and Russia were not in this war ;)
     
  20. Wikzardo

    Wikzardo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, with help I meant that "publicity" help (publicity is not the best word but I couldn't find a better one). I don't remember the Croats being shown as "bad". Serbs were the "bad" guys as far as I know.
    Personnaly I think the war is too close to our time to be able to get the real facts. I mean think of how many things about ww2 where discovered not long ago.
     

Share This Page