Admitting guilt..

Since WW2, the German's have appologised, made Memorials and teach their future generation about their deeds during the war, But in Japan none of the Allied countries had any sort of appology, or do they teach their future generations, about their barbaric behaviour during the war and especially about their treatment to their POW's,,,did this not happen their?!! their are a few Japanese POW's i know who are still upset with this.

 

I think you have a good point and am curious to read what others have to say. Did Japan in any way try to make amends? I read somewhere that the US (and maybe the other Allies?) helped to rebuild what we destroyed because of a war that THEY (Germany/Japan) started.

 

This is a pretty complicated subject. Apology is traditionally a very formal and important aspect of Japanese life. Following the war Hirohito had carefully and ardently prepared a formal apology that he intended to present to MacArthur. When he arrived at MacArthu's headquarters to deliver the apology MacArthur refused to see him. I think if you couple this with the efforts made by MacArthur to protect the Emperor from any culpability for the war-much was covered up, you can see that the opportunity for an appology may have been lost, at least for the time being.

Hirohito was actually very much involved in not only the decisions involved in going to war, but in many of the decisions in how the war was conducted. This could only be deemed a massive "cover-up" in order to maintain the Emperor, which MacArthur believed would keep the Japanese people in line and make the transition easier into the new Japan that MacArthur envisioned. A lot of this information was kept secret until after Hirohito's death when it was released. An Excellent book on the subject is Herbert Bix's Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan. This book shows us a much different picture of Hirohito than picture painted previously this meek Marine Biologist being manipulated by the military.

 

Hi; I believe an apology should have been offered by the Japanese leadership that caused the Pacific war , although I'm no expert on Japanese cultural history from what i've seen the present generation sees it as "their war " in other words the ultra nationalist military leadership of that time , they caused it and paid the price for what they did, a sort of a sins of the father thing . If someones grandfather was a brutal criminal and was charged and executed for his crimes should the grandson who wasn't even born when it all happened have to apolpgize for what happened ? Iam not condemming or condoning this attitude just presenting it as a possible reason why an apology was never given...

 

I have seen how hard it was for my parents who experienced the war and knew of many atrocities suffered by our soldiers such as what happened with their friends in the Bataan death march and I know how hard it was for them to forgive after the war. As a result of their having eventually been able to forgive as much as they could, I became inspired to use a different measure that is more suitable for me to understand. Instead of presenting judgement on what they did in the past I often just stop to see how they support us now in our world politics and have come to think of them as a very good trade partner and friend of American interests abroad. In my study of what MacArthur accomplished to bring Japan to a post war friend showed his talent at doing just the right things to reform and bring about a change in the Japanese view of the emperor that has made it possible for Japan to prosper and be at peace in the post war era. If we were to rely on focusing on the immediate post war faults of the Japanese we would soon be irate and angry but if we were to let that go and try to gain insight as to what MacArthur hoped to accomplish and what did eventually come about with Japan as a trading partner and advocate for our interests abroad, we may be quite a bit more pleased with what eventually resulted from MacArthur's endeavors. To sum it up I am more interested in their actions today than I am in how they may have not been able to so "formally" apologize for past actions. For many cultures the acts of apology, may be difficult to impossible but if their future actions show lessons learned....that is a more important result.

 

As other have indicated I think the idea was to leave as much of the remaining social, cultural and political structures intact through which the country could be rebuilt, as Japan was pretty well devastated by the end of the war. I think MacArthur had more than a bit to do with that approach and Churchill / Stalin / Trueman and the rest of the world were focused on positioning themselves for what was to come next. Although I don't think that should have excused Japan from an apology.
My grandfather served in the 2/3rd LAA and fought the Germans, Vichy French and Japanese. I only ever once asked him about the fighting in Papua new Guinea and he broke down in front of me. I felt ashamed and my grandmother told me Jack said he would never forget what the Japanese did to his friends and he would never forgive them.
Now I think an apology is moot

 

Personally, I don't think the current generation owes us an apology, seeing as how neither I nor any of the current generation were actually there, same as how I don't feel any sort of guilt about slavery and don't feel that I personally owe anybody anything, seeing as how nobody alive today was a slave, and I have personally never owned one. Its the past. The past is there for us to study, learn from, and move on. That being said....the current trend for schools to start teaching "modified" versions of history, to water-down what really happened or to outright deny it (the push to deny the Holocaust, for one, and I've heard somewhere that the death toll on the Bataan Death March is being revised...I hope that I mis-read that), THAT p!sses me off and that is an offense against every man, woman, and child who suffered through it (some of whom I've had the privilege of knowing), and is something that I cannot forgive. It happened. There's no denying it. We need to teach the horrors, make our kids nervous (or scared) enough to remain vigilant that it never happens again, and to hold those who would willingly stand up to such horrors as heroes, whether they donned a uniform or fought in a 5th-column. So should Japan apologize now? I don't see the need, unless specific individuals feel compelled. Should we forgive? I think "yes", but again, that's up to specific individuals. Should we forget? Hell no.

 

Definitely, do not forget. If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it.

The Japanese were conditioned to obey the Emperor. There may have been chaos without him after the surrender.
Here, in their own words, is what some of Our Boys encountered as they met Japanese who bowed instead of shooting.

Wildcat Odyssey

 

There is really nothing as healing, I suppose, as to see the American and Japenese veterans remembering together at Pearl Harbor. That is the generation that deserved the apology and it is up to them to forgive, if they are willing. Some are and some are not, and I understand both sides.

I think this is another complex question, a good question, which has so many answers. As a "polite" society we are taught to believe you should apologize for having committed a wrong. And, as with the Germans in WWII, I think we feel we are owed that apology by the Japanese because it helps us feel they have realized the extent of the wrongs they committed, which will allow us to put it all behind us.

But as was mentioned in other posts, it is the actions of the generations of Japanese that came after WWII that are important - we all know that actions truly do speak louder than words. And I don't know that future generations should be made to continually apologize and atone for what their predecessors have done (assuming they have learned the lessons of those actions).

But with all of that said, I think that it is important for any group of people to acknowledge a wrong done, even if it was done in the past. It is an acknowledgement of the wrong and an implied promise of change, and it should be done.

I will use the analogy of the sex scandals within the Catholic Church. That there were pedophile priests is a monumental problem, don't get me wrong, but it isn't surprising, there will always be bad people. What is a worse crime and shame within the church is that the pedophiles were protected (although it was meant to protect the church) and due to that protection the pedophles were allowed to carry on abusing children. (Bad people do bad things, that's a given, but for supposedly good people to allow children to be a abused is, well, unforgiveable.) The most important thing is that the pedophiles are stopped and that the church stop allowing such actions to continue. But let's face it, the people who were abused want the church to acknowledge and apologize for their part in allowing it to happen. It's important to them, they need to hear it.

So, is it ever really a moot point? The Catholic Church apologized to Galileo in the 1990's (I believe). Did it do any good, serve any purpose? While it means nothing to Galileo at this point, if it was sincere, I suppose that it says that they are willing to acknowledge a fault, which is monumental for an organization that claimed to be infallible for centuries. And I'd also venture to say that the wrong done to Galileo wasn't forgotten even after 350 years (there are always going to be people who follow history) and the acknowledgment and apology for the wrong done, even after so many years, is the only way the Church could make retribution for that black mark.

As the years ticked off and Japan gradually became a peaceful and friendly global neighbor, it would be ridiculous to hold out for an apology and less of an expectation of one. But an apology would have and still would be welcome.

And apology or no, it still is important to remember, for the sake of those who suffered and died, and to (hopefully) avoid a repetition. And as long as it is remembered, the lack of apology will always be remembered, as well.

 

I'd like to agree with everything Clementine said and add a little.

Clementine is quite right. An apology from Japan, particularly to China, would be both true and right, and also possibly healing. But at the same time, ere we point fingers at Japan, I would mention our own hubris. I think very few of us would suggest that violently removing people from their homes is acceptable behavior. Most would acknowledge that it is, in fact, wrong. We would all, no doubt, admit that seizing people's property with neither due process nor any compensation is unacceptable. That systematic torture, legally sanctioned rape, and intentionally turning a blind eye towards the violence of private individuals towards other human beings are all among the highest of high crimes.

But every attempt by anyone in U.S. government to begin proceedings towards a formal apology or any kind of recompense to the descendants of either African slaves or Native Americans that I am aware of has been loudly blocked. And I suspect the same is true of many other good countries that have done bad things at one point or another.

We in the U.S. can't do it ourselves, even if we think, under other circumstances, it's the right thing to do. Most of the white people I know look at it as crimes not even of their grandparents, but of some far off people of no relation to them. (Though they/we are the inheritors of a political system built, in part, through this violence, and all of the benefits of position afforded by that system.)

So I think Clementine's right. I think the Japanese government should apologize. I think the priests at Yasakuni should remove the Kami of Tojo and his fellows from the lists by whatever means necessary. Even if they only see it as a symbolic act and not a real removal, they should strike their names from the lists. They should remove the names of those enshrined there against the wills of their families and against their cultures. They should apologize to Korea, to China, to Australia and Britain, to the U.S., and to everyone else who suffered at the hands of a brutal nationalist regime.

And so should the U.S. We should apologize formally to African Americans, to Native Americans, and to everyone else who suffered under the brutalities of our own nationalism. And we should make recompense to their descendants who still struggle in a culture to which they are largely alien; who still fight against discrimination and systematic disadvantage. But try selling that in Texas, or Georgia, or Missouri, or even southern Illinois. You won't get far.

For that matter, you might as well try to convince Israel to apologize to the Palestinians, or the entirety of Christendom to the Jewish people. (Speaking of violent takings that go back a ways.)

I've no idea how to do it, but maybe there reaches a point where bygones must be bygones, else we end up caught in a cycle of violence. It's a messy chaotic world we live in. And all of us have done rotten things to our neighbors at some point. And we all owe someone an apology. But we've all also done great things: the U.S., Britain, Rome, and yea, even Japan and Germany.

Heck, sometimes you even get great things out of the horribleness, not that they justify it. But it's quite true that you can't have Jazz without slavery, or John Stewart and New York style cheesecake without the Jewish diaspora. We're violent animals, we humans. But also darned creative ones. It would be wonderful to get formal apologies from all who have wronged us. But I hope we can learn to live together even if we never do. (Maybe. With luck and a little wisdom.)

 

I hear what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between the US apologizing for slavery and Japan apologizing for their treatment of POW's. For one, slavery ended back in the late 1800's...close to 150 years ago. My Grandparents didn't even know anyone who was involved in slavery (however remote). So there is nobody alive today who was directly affected by slavery. Indirectly, yes...those who's ancestors were brought over on slave ships had the privilege of being born in a country where, despite their skin color, they've got unparalleled freedoms and opportunities if they're willing to work for them. I have worked with a lot of folks of different ethnicities, and have counted a large portion of them as friends. The majority of them only want a fair and impartial chance to make their own way in the world, yet understand that humans are humans and nobody is perfect. Then there's the very vocal minority who simply want to cash in on someone else's sufferings 200 years ago and take a free ride. I'm all for that....a free ride back to South Africa if they don't like it here. My guess is they won't like it there any better. (I'm NOT going to get into the "African-American" rant...pick one, and either move, or start workin.). So, while its a black time in our country's history, we've abolished slavery and are slowly working to get rid of those racist mentalities that, unfortunately, are still being handed down from parents to kids today (hey...I did mention that we're all human...but, we're working on it). As for Japan's treatment of POW's and total disregard for the Geneva Conventions and basic human dignity, that's still a living, breathing issue. My own Grandfather served in Italy as a B24 prop mechanic, so this topic doesn't touch my family directly, but I've talked to many a Vet who sat staring into the jungles at night, only to wake up the next morning to find a foxhole buddy or squadmate disappeared...or found later, mutilated while tied helplessly to a tree. I've had the privilege to shake the hand of a gentleman who was in a Japanese POW camp, who refused to comment on his experiences (and from what I've read, I don't blame him one bit). Japan's guilt is still personal. Its still alive. Japan profited from the slave labor of POW's who were "paid" a daily wage, but never saw one yen...the companies that they "worked" for never had to account for any of their profiteering, not even putting the money towards building schools or improving hospitals/sanitation or funding a VA hospital in the US. They got away scott-free. The Japanese government not only knew about the way their soldiers were conducting the war, they trained them and instilled in them the warped "Bushido code" that made it all possible. Now....do I personally need an apology from Japan? No. I was not involved in it. Are there a lot of Pacific vets who have forgiven and moved on (including POW's)? Yes. Are there a lot of Pacific vets who have not? Yes. That's a personal decision, and again, not having been through what they went through, I respect either one. I don't see a solution to this, myself (if I had one, I'd probably get a Nobel Peace Prize....then again, since they bought Obama one, I don't think I'd want one of my own), other than maybe just put out an open invitation to any vets of the Pacific War, and take all of those "wages" that were "earned" by the POW's and open a couple of hospitals or schools or something akin to the Holocaust Museum, with the proviso that any Pacific War vet or POW has an invitation to visit (expenses paid) at any time.

I don't think that we, the US (or any other country, for that matter), could ever atone for the sins of our forefathers. Every country came into being by kicking the crap out of some other group of people and consolidating a certain territorial area. It wasn't pretty. Slavery happened. Oppression happened. The Trail of Tears happened. We've grown past that, for the most part. We need to draw a line in the sand and just say "okay, before this, yeah, it happened, and we've initiated ______ to ensure it never happens again" and move on. I personally think that the line should be drawn just past the oldest living person who was involved in whatever. As you said, good came out of the darkness...does it justify that darkness happening? No. Will dwelling on it change anything? No. Is there a cut-n-dried solution to the problem? No. Will we ever see peace in the Middle East? Doubtful. Does New York-style cheesecake rock? Without a doubt.

Okay, ramble over. Not enough caffeine and too close to my bedtime. *sigh* The worst part of vacation...the night before you have to go back to work. Blah.

 

As weird as it sounds...there should be a statute of limitations on these things...hard pill to swallow for the WW2 Pacific vets and Viet vets, but easier to agree to when observing other countries and cultures...International courts should here all cases and verdicts given (NOT the U bloody N either...someone everybody trusts....and Australian for example : ) We hate everybody, so cant be biased...We make good inspectors too...To take it to this court however the Prime Ministers and Presidents MUST sign a surety that they will abide by the verdict...The Politician better have a mandate frmo his people to attend this court also...this would put the word "official" in front of findings, making it difficult to garner sympathy from elsewhere...moving forward.
And maybe not so bitter a pill for the Vets if some justice is found...even if it is a full admission of all guilt...Although that may come AFTER the SoL has expired...it would still happen and history can move forward...One reason why countries like the US and Australia do so well is becasue we have so little baggage...so little history to mire us, taint our thoughts and actions...so few enemies...

 

Apologies will not change the past. It won't bring anybody back from the dead, or put back together the shattered wounded and maimed. The ghostly remanents of the last gaunt garrisons are alive in the memories of contemporaries and descendants, and thats all that matters.

No sense in burdening modern people with needless guilt. There are enough cultural groups using it as a catch all excuse as it is. Better that we learn to share our place with others like ourselves, and others different, and find common ground in the new relationships that are built from the ashes of conflict.

It is a sign of a civilized society that it can let the past be GONE, and move into the future with eyes fixed firmly upon it....don't look back in anger.....Get on with the business of living in the NOW. This is something Indigenous communities all over the globe are going to have to achieve. In another 10 generations, when all the protagonists from their remembered conflicts are dead, and their grandchildren have great grandchildren of their own, be big enough to not worry about past injustice. Societies that take religon far too seriously please take note.

 

Wow....this thread is rapidly turning into a cliche festival.

 

Telling me, I'm just waiting for a McCleans advertisement any minute now, before we're returned to our former broadcasting.

I think the issue can be dealt with by where you hold the neighbours of a criminal responsible for their criminality. There are two things wrong with this. Either you believe it, thus are responsible for your social ills such as economic welfare and cannot argue that there are freeloaders.
Or, you are being facetious and disingenuous, in which case it is indeed utterly ridiculous to hold the neighbours of a criminal responsible for the criminality. Calling them all collectively Japanese for justification is as silly as calling them all collectively anti-lawful. They are people, with no closer relation to the war criminals of any nation, their own included, than you or I are.

It really is exactly that simple. Perchance it is not "they" whom owe the apolegy here?



my own apolegies for sounding harsh, but I feel it is a responsibility to test the sharpness of a jagged pill one would expect others to swallow, yes?

 

My view is pretty simple. The Japanese should have appologized and still should appologize to at least China. The autrocities commited by the Japanese, such as Rape of Nanking, is so terrible it deserves an appology even today. What the hell? How har is it to say we are sorry. I'm not even talking about appologizing for the war, destruction of national treasure, killing of millions of soilders, even though an appology for those is deserved, but at least an appology for the crimes against humanity. The is no comparison between Rape of Nanking and Japanese internment camps in the US. Not saying they were the right thing to do, but after all there was schools, hospitals, etc. and US did appologize, as it should have. If the Japanese politicians think that the Chinese forgot, they should get ready for a rude awakening. I believe the new China, which is getting more and more powerful everyday, will have an unpleasent view toward Japan economically. And who could blame them, if Japan after all can't appologize. We are not taling about retributions.

 

When we were training for our deployment to Iraq, the senior Japanese officer of their engineer det, that we would be providing security for as part of our mission, gave a speech to us in Darwin. The first words out of his mouth was to apologize for his forebears for bombing Darwin in 1942. He said it was such a lovely city, and he was very sorry that his country had bombed it!!!!A few months into our deployment we had to pick up the official war artist and members of the army history unit, who came to Iraq to take pics and gather stuff, as they do. They asked us if the Japanese were building any bridges, as they thought it would be a good photo op showing Aussie soldiers, guarding Japanese troops building a bridge.The Japanese constitution now does not allow thm to actively patrol aggressively in the AO, they can only fire back in self defence, so that's why it was up to us to protect their convoys.

 

Sorry Volga...you like I have no right to speak for those that were there..When they forgive or forget or leave this mortal earth then it dies with them. Tony Blair tried that tack on the visit of Emperor a few years ago and vets turned their back. Its their right, to forgive and forget or whatever not OURS.