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Did any German soldiers refuse to obey orders to commit atrocities, and what happened to them ?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by Justin Smith, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That's a matter of defintion. He actually was elected but by vote of the electoral college. Given that most if not all are now required to vote for the candidate who won in thier state I'd say he qualifies as such. Hitler on the other hand was invited to form a government by the leaders of the then current government. I belive the Nazi's had gathered well under 40% of the votes in the previous election (from memory it was around 30%).
    We're wandering a fair bit from the topic though.
     
  2. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    But then Hitler was as legitimate a leader as Churchill as far as how he got power if nothing else.
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    That's likely correct. I'd have to look at the details of just how he was picked to be sure though. In any case what brings to question Hitler's "legitamacy" if that's the correct term is what he did afterwards to consolidate power.
     
  4. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Superficially, yes, but I agree with belasar’s statement:
    Now, we have a solid starting point to approach the subject of this conversation from the proper angle. Hitler was chosen by people and all other parties except social democrats have voted in favor of the Enabling Act. Hitler wasn't chosen by aliens but was inaugurated by the votes of citizens of then democratic German state and by votes of their delegates in other parties. Before the elections Hitler was quite eloquent in presentation of his plans, so nobody can deny that they knew his intentions when they voted. It is also obvious that the orders issued by the Nazi officers are materialization of Hitler's political program. Now, the answer to the original question is that people at elections have decided what kind of commands they will have to obey. Therefore it is conceivable , that the vast majority of soldiers were obedient because they have got orders they wanted to hear. Therefore they were so enthusiastic in following the orders despite of possible consequences.

    Again, with all due respect, to avoid any misunderstanding whatsoever: I am not talking about the German nation in general but strictly within the time frame of the Nazi regime.

    That's how I see that. :)
     
  5. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Obama became President through the same process as the rest. Even those vice presidents who succeeded to the presidency on the death of their predecessors were elected VP through the constitutional process (with the one exception of Gerald Ford who was appointed VP, also constitutionally). If you want to relate it to Hitler, the proper formula would be:

    None of the US presidents were elected either.....
     
  6. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    That tread is <HERE>!
    And here is that snippet:
     
  7. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Within the framework of Germany at the time I'd also agree that his rise to power was legitamate. Furthermore it's clear that a lot and probably the majority by a significant percentage of the Germans agreed with at least some of the things Hitler wanted to do. He was fairly careful to pick popular positions in a number of areas especially early on. However he did rely on extra constitituional means (violence, murder, and such) to consolodate his possition. The mix of popular programs and intimidation pretty much insured that he continued in power up to the end. Especially early on I can see a number of his orders being quite popular as well. Later in the war the choices became more limited.

    I suspect as well that early on the consequences weren't at all obvioius to many. Indeed even when they became fairly apparent later on denial seems to have been a major factor in German political life.
     
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  8. Duns Scotus

    Duns Scotus Member

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    June 26 1941-Wehrmacht Leutnant Hans Guenthger Stark and hs N.CO. sidekick stoped a Nazi death squad comprised of Lithuanians led by one S.S. man atempting to mudere 30 Jewish civilians in batches of three in a pit.
    Stark lept into the it cvered by his N.C.O. Oberweichmeister Bols wieding a sub machine gun , diarnmed the Lithuananians, and warned the S.S. an that he would be shot if he tried to resume the murders.
    Subsequently, Stark's C.O. told him that he had done the right thing and no epecussions were visited on Stark or Bols .
    But as the source of this anecdote-modern German Holocaust gistorian, Guido Knof comments -Such interbventions by Wehrmacht staff ere too few and far betweenon the OSTFRONT.
     
  9. Justin Smith

    Justin Smith Member

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    You`re wrong actually.
    Churchill survived a few votes of no confidence in Parliament which could theoretically have gone the other way, in which case I have no doubt whatsoever that he`d have resigned. In fact in his memoirs he states quite a few times he`d have resigned if Parliament had wanted him to continue as Prime Minister but tried to replace him as minister for war (he held both posts concurrently).
    But the absolute proof that the above quote is wrong is that Churchill was voted out of office before the war was even over. Somehow I couldn`t imagine that happening to Hitler......
     
  10. Justin Smith

    Justin Smith Member

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    Aren`t you forgetting that most of the electorate take most of what politicians say with a large pinch of salt ! They don`t actually expect them to do half of what they promise (they regard much of it as rhetoric), and, more importantly, they expect [a properly functioning] Parliament to modify any extremist or ill thought out policies.
    Anyway, how many Germans at the time actually read Mein Kampf, or actually thought he`d actually do all that, "after all, if he meant it literally, he`d have to be mad, surely ! "
    Arguably the people who should definitely have been reading Mein Kampf were the leaders of Poland, Russia, Holland, Belgium, France, Britain etc etc etc........
     
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  11. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    But they ignore the rhetoric? In which case they are culpable. The rhetoric matters, has been shown by history to matter and permeates down to todays problems. Ignoring the rhetoric is NO buy out for anyone..
     
  12. Tamino

    Tamino Doc - The Deplorable

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    Just look at Führer below and listen to the snippet from his numerous 1932 election speeches! He was very clear, wasn't he? People needn't bother reading Mein Kampf. He plainly told them he would abolish democracy in Germany forever and they replied with standing ovations. More critically, even his political opponents voted in favor of the Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act) when he told them what he wants to do. They knowingly inaugurated him into indisputable Emperor of the German Reich to rule and do what he promised to do.
    [video=youtube;5sKyAmzeDVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sKyAmzeDVI[/video]
     

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