Disgusting behavior from the US President and the UK PM.

Fair points chaps ^ but no one is suggesting that Ukraine not be independent. The issue is the provocation (and it is a provocative act) of NATO membership for Ukraine, with all that entails for Russia. Imagine China building military air and naval bases in Mexico. Ukraine's proposals re. NATO are a clear threat to Russia. There's no need for the EU and NATO to seek to encompass Ukraine. Ukraine can be non-aligned, independent and free.

 

I never accused you of such so your objection is puzzling. Maybe an admission of guilt?

Fact... America is my country. While I was born in Russia I live in the States and consider this my home.

Another fact... I'm not doing anything, therefore; I don't know how to stop anything.

Fact... Not everyone in the States and Europe agrees with you. Jack Matlock is one of these people and I prefer to listen to his opinion over yours (no offense). He is simply more knowledgable than you are or myself.

Thank you for that but considering that I have a minor in English I don't think ill have much use for "my English dictionary". Since we are, however; in such a helpful mood, let me return the favor. Judging by your previous posts you seem to be confused on what a referendum is. Let me help you. A referendum is NOT an election. It has no candidates, no debates or policies to speak of. It is a yes or no vote on a specific issue/topic.

This is not MY thread as I didn't start it. I simply joined in to give a different point of view and provided numerous sources as reference. You on the other hand have not or have very little.

 

No I quoted Matlock. I did put my twist at the end tho. You don't know that because you haven't read the article so here it is again.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/former-u-s-ambassador-ussr-u-s-nato-provoking-ukrainian-crisis.html

If all Ukrainians wanted to be part of NATO then there wouldn't be a civil war

This is not demonizing???

I'm amazed at such thinking. Just curious out of the 13 Soviet Republics, how many has Russia tried to reclaim?

"You people"? Your kidding right? Go head and begin digging yourself out of that one.

You do remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki don't you? That wasn't Russia.

I was unaware that that Russia was the only country testing missiles....

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123118

Totally no demonizing here.....

 

Tropic Thunder- What do you mean, you people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxs0Qh72kY

 

Have you ever thought that America is in Cubas sphere of influence? Maybe the US is really in Mexico's sphere of influence? Sounds silly doesn't it?

BTW, Ukraine is NOT a "nuke" power.

To judge a thousand year history based on the action of one man is not only ignorant but irresponsible.

Wales is not it own country.

There was a reporter from Britain who compared taking Russia out of Ukraine is like taking England out off Wales.... "In that part if the world Russia just is", he claimed. I will try to find the article.

 

In my humble opinion Russians should deal with Ukraine in more democratic manner. They should first, accuse Ukraine of possessing weapons of mass destruction, without any evidence - of course, and then bomb them to the obliteration of the entire nation. Instead, the Russians just talk about reconciliation. That sounds so undemocratic.

 

If all Ukraiians wanted to be part of NATO, there would not be a civil war....


This is not a civil war.

It is a foreign power, (Russia), sponsoring, with money and weapons, thugs who do anything Moscow wants as long as the rewards are there. These same thugs are further helped by Russian troops, also in the Ukraine illegally.

Sloniki, you are such a slavish apologist for Russia and it's bandit government. I've seen you do it before.

Despite your western living address, I do not honestly believe you have totally shaken of the malaise of seeing things from the Russian perpsective. This might be OK normally, but it leads you to carry on in the fashion of someone still inside Russia, with all the attendant handicaps. Russians are a very proud people, a little TOO proud. They are caught between a Europe that is tired of their ape like brand of gunpoint politics.

The problems have been there since the end of World War One, and the coming of Vladimir Uliyanov. Much of the problems that still exist today are directly related to this period. Tsarism, while bad in it's own way, looks benign as a regime, compared to the blood soaked regime of Lenin/Trotsy, and then Stalin and people like Beria, Felix dezerhinsky, (excuse spelling).

The thing that gets up westerners noses is that ordinary Russians still see those butchers as national heroes. We realise that the people were much ground underheal, but Perestroika and Glasnost provided ordinary russians with the oppoetunity of the century...to start again.

And what did we end up with?

The same old Stalinist leadership, another dictatorship, another cult of personality, another military government, and a business sector that has little to separate it from what it was like before.

I prefer to think that russians are literate and smart. They keep proving me incorrect. You would have thought people like Zhukov would have lead you out of socialism. But I guess thats why they got rid of him.

Slonik, stop letting your patriotism get in the way of your brain function. Surely you can see, just like we can, that Russia is the same old dictatorship, dressed up with new money.

And, as far as I'm aware, when the Soviets imploded, some of the numkes were given to the Ukrainians. At the time, they were rated as the fourth largest nuke power on the globe, and I believe they still are.

 

Ask Karjala what his country thinks of it's soviet neighbours. They hate the very ground that russians walk on. Then have a look at their history and see why.

Ask other ethnic peole that Russians have stepped on for nothing more than their own gain, the list is long.

Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Poland
Czechoslovakia
Hungary
Romania
Bessarabia, (yes, i know it's officially only a region, but it's still another ethnic group that Russian politics has simply stepped on)
Afghanistan
Siberia, (they are like modern Cossacks, and really should have their own country, but take away siberia and the remainder of Russia is reduced to farming communies, and we cant have that, now can we.

You get the picture, cause there are more.No other country has more ethnic enemies, with little or no chance of reconciliation. Doesn't sound like smart politics to me.

I'm asking you, Slonik, WHY do you bother defending your ex-overlords when you know as well as we do what all of these countries do? That Russia is run by people with no idea as to proper relationships with their neighbours, ex occupied nations, or even with Ukrainians, a people just next door that they have a great deal in common with, more alike than different.

Your position as a Trustee really makes me wonder, with some of the apologist non-sense I've seen you post, really makes me wonder where your oyalties actuall are.

If you appreciate Russian political machinations so much, why are you living in the good'ol land of the free?

Why didn't you stay in russia and try to make a difference. People do. Brave kids like Pussy Riot are opening people's eyes. Sooner than you think, Russia will be controlled by a new generation who don't give a shit what happened in WW2, and just want to be accepted by the rest of Europe as people, not as semi-educated thugs throwing their national weight around at gunpoint, and playing with nukes as a national form of blackmail....you get the picture.

 

Have you read this yet???
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/former-u-s-ambassador-ussr-u-s-nato-provoking-ukrainian-crisis.html

 

One major problem. Putin is not Gorbachev. Gorbachev was a man of his word and could be trusted...Putin is...ummm...a man.

Second major problem. Given the washingtonblog's well known "slant" on the "news", are we gullible enough to believe the article?

 

Each and every nation has a legitimate right of self-determination. Russians too. Russians living in what is today called Ukraine have legitimate right to separate from the state who uses military forces against ethnic Russian population. They have the right to decide on that matter, not NATO.

 

I only provide a source. It is up to you to believe in whatever you would like. I will state that this interview did in fact take place in Germany and can easily be found on the intenet...

 

A task of the president isn't to make each and every individual on this planet to "trust" him.

Primary task of any reasonable president of a nation is to defend interests of his own nation. In this particular case Putin acts a bit too yielding. He should have been much more resolute in protecting the Russian population which remained in what was once SSR Ukraine.

 

I'm a trustee on this forum because after nearly a decade of membership some here feel that I have contributed a little in better understanding the conflict on the eastern front. Personally I'm not sure why they think this but hey, it's a crazy world.

As for the rest of the your post... I think that to judge my character/loyalty and jump to conclusions based on a few replies in a forum which disagree with your own is a reflection of your character.

 

I'm not questioning that the John Matlock interview took place. I'm questioning what parts of the interview were selected for publication, either by the original interviewer or by the washingtonblog. The "selective" highlighting is also provocative. Indeed, Mr. Matlock's "view" can be confirmed by a simple Google search, however, another simple Google search will provide many "quotes" blaming Russia & Putin for the predicament.

Thus, playing "dueling quotes" does nothing more to further one's argument - pro or con - as the quoter is only restating their position using another person's words.

 

With respect to everyone's opinion, surely this debate can happen without loyalties being questioned and without things becoming too personal?

 

I could care less anymore.

If our trustee wants to be a regressive stalinist, thats his business, and anyone else that wishes to.

Good luck to you all. Just don't complain when the wheels fall off and the Russians find themselves fighting all and sundry, yet again. Won't worry me, I'm too old for military service. Others can go off on some damn fool crusade on the other side of the earth, in some Godforsaken shithole corner of the Earth. I'll still have my house, our family, and my job, so what do I care.?

 

I can well understand why you do not want to respond to my posts, since I proved all of your "facts" to be quite the opposite,,,

NATO was indeed founded to defend the West against a massive soviet attack, which the USSR was planning and training for. When the USSR collapsed, Russia was not seen as a potential enemy anymore. Now Russia has changed it all and made herself an enemy again. Russia has only herself to blame for that.

The problem with some diplomats is, that they start to suffer from some kind of "Stockholm syndrome", i.e. they loose their common sense and start to overunderstand or even partly support the regimes of the countries, where they are/have been stationed, regardless of the degree of evilness of those regimes. This seems to have happened to Mr. Matlock.

This phenomenon does not happen only in the USA but also elsewhere, Finland included.

At least you have not presented any credible evidence of the Ukrainian revolution(s) being imported. There's no question about the local nature and origin of those revolutions.

Russian imperialistic history - whether imperial, soviet or other type of dictatorship - only proves, that she is the biggest bully - especially since the WW1.

What Russia now wants is an unstable Ukraine which she could bully around.

"There was even a movie made about it here" - well, it must be the truth then... ;-)

You are very wrong. In Cuba the soviets tried to bring nuclear weapons aimed at the USA. In Ukraine there are no nuclear weapons anymore (they have been delivered to Russia) nor is there any plan to bring them there. Totally different.

"sphere of influence"? There's more than a whiff of Stalin/Hitler thinking there. It's Ukrainians' own business only to decide, what kind of influence they want or prefer.

"We" nor our leaders are not placing ourselves anywhere. It's mr. Putin who has placed his country into this mess he has created.

Ukraine did not want to join NATO until Russia invaded her. Nobody can blame them for thinking differently NOW.

"NATO" bases in most of the NATO countries are the bases of their own military. That would most likely be the case also in Ukraine: NATO bases = Ukrainian army/air force.

EU/NATO are not seeking anything - Ukraine is.

 

Karjala I choose not to respond to you because you don't know how to engage politely. You aren't bothered with facts.... I remember when we had a discussion a few years back and you swore up and down that the Soviet Archives were filled with a bunch of lies. You were immediately told to provide evidence by several moderators here which Of course you failed to do but still continued your anti Russian rhetoric. To you anything Russian is bad and it doesn't matter what sources are provided to you which counter you claim. You are simply not fun to have debates with.

It' is very tough to prove anyone wrong when you provide few or no sources at all.

 

You're right Richard. However, the centrall question is: should the present day Ukraine be allowed to exist, not for external, strategic reasons, but the reasons of humanity? A country that segregates her population according to ethnicity shouldn't be allowed to exist. A country that attacks own population with mititary forces should be dismembered. What we observe over the past months in Ukraine is worse than persecution of Jews in the Third Reich. Ukraine, such as it is today should be terminated as a country.