Sherman´s engine dangerous?

The most common tank battle range was 800y. And only the 17pdr could penetrate the Panthers glacis, while the U.S. 76mm M1A1-2 couldnt penetrate the Panthers glacis even at point blank range. It is true though that the U.S. 76mm could penetrate the Panthers Gun-mantlet out to ca.500y, however the usual place to hit fist was the glacis as it presented a much bigger target.

KBO

 

Most engagements between tanks on the Eastern Front took place at ranges less than 800 yards, the most common battle range was 450-650 yards. I would guess these numbers were lower in the ETO.

 

yeah i reade about the sherman who was getting on fire just for no reasen at all. and oh yes doesnt any one knows the nickame of the sherman ???

 

It was the ''tommycooker"

this says enough doesnt it

 

Less than 800y ? I remember 800y as the norm from varius sources, however I could be mistaken. In the ETO the normal range was probably around 500m, at wich range the U.S. 76mm in theory should be able to penetrate the Panthers Mantlet, so it wasnt invincible.

KBO

 

Most tank combat in the ETO took place at ranges below 500 yds, where the 76mm could penetrate the front armor of the Panther. There is plenty of back up for this. Don't confuse gunnery tests with reality. there may have been no guarantee of the round penetrating, but there was a high enough probability of it happening at close (less than 500 yds) range for Panther commanders to worry. BTW the Comet's gun was also capable of handling the Panther. Advanatage Panther for sure, but not invulnerable.

 

Yes at 500y the U.S. 76mm gun would penetrate the Gun-mantlet but not the Glacis, the glacis was invulnerable to the U.S. 76mm M1A1-2.

The Comet also used the 17pdr

KBO

 

The US 75mm/L31 (M2) had penetration values of 60mm @ 30 deg at 500 yds range using M72 AP shot.
The US 75mm/L40 (M3) had penetration values of 76mm @ 30 deg at 500 yds range using M72 AP shot. (The 57mm M1 was about the same)
The US 76mm/L55 (M1 series; 76mm/L53 M5 & M7 were virtually identical) had penetration values of 109mm @ 30 deg at 500 yds range using M79 AP shot, 116mm with M62 APC and 157mm @ 30 deg at 500 yds using M93 HVAP (very rare, especially in tank units)

The front hull (upper) armor of the Panther Mk V Ausf. G was 80mm @ 55 deg., the lower front hull was 50mm @ 55deg; the sides were 50mm at 29 deg, the rear were 40mm; the turret front face was 100mm and the mantlet 120mm; and the turret sides and rear 45mm.

The crews of a number of US 76mm equipped vehicles (tanks and TDs) believed they had successfully penetrated the front armor of Panthers with AP shot, although it frequently took multiple hits to achieve this. The tactic of preferrence (and necessity for 75mm armed Shermans) was to use their normally superior numbers and manuver to get in a flank or rear shot for a near sure kill. The gyro-stabilzed guns of the Sherman and a fast turret traverse often allowed Sherman crews to get in one or more shots before their German opponents. A good thing because they needed the extra chances. The Sherman was not an even match for the Panther, but neither was it powerless.

 

These numbers are against U.S. 240BHN test plates, against German Panzers with armor ranging from 275-500BHN the penetration value drops off quite significantly ! (Even the 17pdr's APDS rounds frequently bounced off or shattered upon hitting the Tiger-I's armor even at point blank range !)

U.S. AP projectiles were inside the shatter-gap because their projectiles were to soft, while the much harder German Armor-Piercing projectiles were beyond shatter-gap and therefore wouldnt shatter on impact with armor. (German penetration figures are against 275-300BHN test-plates)

A British experimental test-example:

British tests against homogeneous armor at 610 m/s impact velocity:

102mm penetration for German 75mm APCBC
90mm penetration for U.S. 76mm APCBC
75mm penetration for Russian 76mm APBC

U.S. penetration tests for Sherman 75mm indicate 89mm penetration at 610 m/s.

-US 76mm M62 APCBC had a noose hardness of 477-(627 BHN-late)
-Soviet 76mm BR350 B APBC had a noose hardness of 460-560 BHN
-German 75mm PzGr 39 APCBC had a noose hardness of 627+ BHN

HVAP and APCR rounds are no good against sloped armor, where the normal APCBC round is MUCH better by comparison.

Making it invulnerable to the U.S. 76mm fire.

Best regards, KBO.

 

KBO


You continue to confuse test results with reality. Face it, not every Panther was lost on the eastern front to IS-2s or the victim of fuel starvation or voluntary destruciton by the crews in an effort to make the war more fair.

 

Another nickname for Sherman was Ronson ( as parody of a commercial: Ronson ( Sherman) always light's the first time ( when hit). This nickname was given to Sherman by Brits in Normandy. In Normandy additional problems were coused by additional ammo, fuel and equipment carried by tanks outside. This is a good idea when disembarking (as one is carrying additional ammo and fuel for quick ressuplie giving them a small amounts of independence from resuplie unit which are not usualy in the first waves in landings ), but bad idea for fighting. If additonal fuel or ammo carried outside was hit that usualy ment destruction of the tank. Gemans usualy practicad this only on the march but not in combat.

 

Sherman turret reverse speed was max 24 degrees a second....that means ful 360 would do 15 sec....wich is the same speed as a Panther A could do.....

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule ... stics.html
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/index.html

 

offcoarse not...but that doesn't mean that the glacis was pentrated with ease or not....a kill from the side was just more preferable and much easier(and in some cases the only way!)

 

Nice sites. I've seen the same info on the traverse rates and yet the Allied and German first hand histories mention the superior speed of the Shermans turret. Maybe it was just a myth or maybe it was a case of specifications versus reality or better mechanical realiability on the Sherman. Hopefully someone out there knows the answer. In any case as I've said, there are many accounts by both German and Allied crews ot the shermans faster traverse allowing them to get in the first shot. I didn't notice, I would assume the same traverse speed applies to the Panther D/G models?

 

I have never contended that the glacis was penetrated with ease or that it was done frequently, rather that when it was done it usually took multiple hits, which doesn't meet the test definition of penetration. perhaps the first hit weakened the armor in some way or just gouged away enough of it that the second hit was able to get through. Maybe somebody got lucky and got one the 10% (I'm making the number up KBO) that did get through. I have never seen any account of a 75mm Sherman getting a Panther in the glacis, but I have read accounts, and seen alleged photos, of US 76mm guns getting the Panther from the front. KBO has a fixiation that all things German are perfect and that all test results and specifications mirror the real world.

 

Why did Danyel Phelps have to go and get hinself banned?!!!

 

Turret traverse speed doesn't seem to be very well covered. I have found two global values for the Sherman, 24 degrees/second and 36 degrees/second.
For the Panther D, I have found 6 degrees/second, and 24 deg/sec
for the A, 24 degrees/second , as well as 6 & 20 deg/sec
and for the G, 20 degrees/second. as well as 6 & 24 deg/sec.

I have no clue if any are correct, but 36 deg/sec versus 6 deg/sec certainly would give the Sherman an advantage, but none if all are 24 deg/sec.

What to believe?

 

Canambridge there is no way the U.S. 76mm gun will penetrate the Panthers Glacis plate at any range.

Also the test results are "Real" test results, making them perfectly suitable for this arguement.

KBO

 

Seems they are all correct....if i remember correctly 6deg/sec is turret rotation speed by hand, the other numbers are for the powered rotation.
when they governered the panther engine at 2500rpm the rotation dropped to 20 deg/sec

 

[quote="KBO]Canambridge there is no way the U.S. 76mm gun will penetrate the Panthers Glacis plate at any range.

Also the test results are "Real" test results, making them perfectly suitable for this arguement.

KBO[/quote]

Sorry KBO, test results are not real results, I've been involved in enough tests to know the difference. The penetration values under discussion are from controlled tests. Actual armor and ammunition in the field, for many reasons, may not have matched the test specimens. The British, German and US definition of penetration requried that at least 50% of firings pass through the test armor specimen. If say 33% of the projectiles made it through, the test results would be "no penetration". The test results showing "no penetration" do not preclude a lower percentage of firings passing through (penetratring) the test article. It is entirely possible that quite valid test results show "no penetration" and still have occurances in combat where a 76mm gun penetrated a Panther's glacis. Many US 76mm gun crews believed this to be the case.