Yamato verses Iowa

One of the posters on the other hand makes a pretty strong case for the Japanese shooting in general being better than previously reported and in particular that of Yamato.

 

That poster would be Robert Lundgren who is soon to have a book published about the Battle off Samar and he also has an article on NavWeapons per the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal in regards to damage to the South Dakota & Kirishima.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/index_lundgren.htm

 

Head-on engagement - Yamato
Running battle - Iowa.

 

A big problem with radar at Guadalcanal is that it was not understood well as to how useful it could be. The biggest failure was a failure in command and control of the task forces

 

I e-mailed Robert Lundgren and here is his response....
ickysdad wrote:
and this was his response...

Brian,



Yamato’s Detailed action report says that at dawn surface visibility was 41,648 yards. She sighted the U.S. task force at 40,552 yards. At 0659 she opened fire at 34,524 yards. The under keel hit took place on her third salvo at 0704. It was a six shell salvo with four shells landing close to the ship, two to port and two to starboard with no color. Yamato was no color and all Japanese battleships were firing from their forward turrets only. Nagato opened fire at 0701 with pink dyed shells at 35,500 yards and reports a straddle and White Plains reported a straddle at 0702. This is directly from Nagato’s detailed action report. White Plains only reported no color and pink colored shells which match Japanese reports that Yamato and Nagato were firing on the same target. White Plains gave an estimated range of 31,300 yards. At 0704 Nagato records that a destroyer as just begun to make smoke which is the USS Johnston. She reports a carrier is hit at 0704. Yamato believes she hits on her third salvo which is 0704. White Plains documented being hit at 0704. So the Japanese are observing not just ship masts but what the US ships are actually doing and documenting this within their reports.



The film shows a six shell pattern with four shells landing next to the carrier with one splash disappearing well before the other five as if the ship blocked the splash. Johnston is in the background and you can see the tail end of her smoke showing she has just started to make smoke. White Plain’s keel is crushed in and flooding took place on the hold deck and there is a long list of other damage. She temporarily went out of control and did a big circle and threw up a big cloud of black smoke. The film shows six shell patterns and four shell patterns consistent with Japanese documentation. At 0706 Yamato gives a range of 33,426 yards. So the 0704 hit is between 34,524 and 33,426 yards. She will fire a fifth salvo at Kitkun Bay at 0709 at a range of 36,387 yards and achieved a straddle with three shells landing to port and three to starboard and the film captured this as well. White Plains was at the tail end of the formation at this time. I have photos of these early salvos from both Kalinin Bay and Kitkun Bay so you can see them from two different angles. I have photos of White Plains’s crushed in keel and the cracks in her side that later would force her to withdraw due to her hull girder being compromised due to this damage.



Haruna and Kongo open fire at approximately 0705 on Fanshaw Bay who recorded their colors of yellowish/green and red. Photos also confirm four shell patterns falling around her about this time.



Is the White Plains “hit” a direct hit? No, so if you are defining this as a direct hit only it does not apply and I leave this up to the individual reader to make their own conclusion. Was White Plains hit? Yes, the only way her keel can be crushed in is if she is hit by the explosive force by a BB caliber projectile which was designed to attack ships through a stable underwater trajectory and long delay to either strike a ship’s side or detonate below the keel. It worked as it was designed. Yamato is the only possible candidate because it was a six shell salvo of no color and she is the only Japanese battleship that can fire a six shell salvo from her forward turrets which was documented and the no color matches her. The only other battleship that had opened fire by 0704 was Nagato. She could only fire four shell patterns and her color would have been pink. This is totally based on the primary documentation from both sides and what was captured on film.



For a potential long range “Direct Hit” Kongo may have scored at 30,000 yards on USS Heermann at 0850 when one shell went through the bow and one also detonated under her keel. Heermann documents Kongo’s red color, the shells came from aft which is where Kongo is. The first hit came from forward and this is where Tone is and Tone also has her under fire. Heermann documented large caliber shell hits that do massive flooding forward and she loses 17 feet freeboard forward by 0900. She is taking green water over her bow and looks like she is sinking by the bow. Kongo documents she sank a destroyer at 0902. Will the surviving documentation convince everyone? Probably not, but at least she should enter the conversation as a possibility.



I wish the book would come out today but I have to be patient. All the photos are in the book and the book is really a direct translation of all the Japanese reports as well as the US reports.



I hope this helps,



Robert Lundgren

 

The 18" was the (much) better belt armour penetrator, the superheavy 16" the (somewhat) better deck armour penetrator. At the long ranges of daylight battles deck hits are more likely.

Taking into consideration the much superior gunnery radar and FCS of Iowa, she is likely to hit first and keep hitting more often.

 

You don't win if you don't hit. Yes, the Yamato MIGHT have hit a slow, unmaneuverable CVE, and that's a huge world away from from hitting a 33 kt, BB who's not running away, and shooting back in a big way. The Yamato would have to be doing its own splash chasing, and with a crew frankly, not as we'll trained (certainly lost their edge). So would a twisting, no doubt hit, Yamato be able to hit a more maneuverable, and faster Iowa? The world wonders!

 

However remember one thing about her MIGHT having hit a slow unmaneuverable CVE is that her crew had been sleep deprived by the long transit through the night through San Bernadino Strait after having undergone a severe air attack over the Sibuyan Sea. Now even if she didn't hit at 34,000 yards she most certainly straddled on her second salvo that is darn good shooting under any circumstances but then again Iowa and New Jersey straddled DD Nowaki at 34K & 39K.

 

And I would submit straddling a DD is far more difficult than straddling a CVE.

 

true very true but both are outstanding!!!!

 

From accounts I've seen (I think it was over on the IJN board it maybe in her TROM) one problem Yamato had was that it's not clear she ever fired at a surface target with "warm" barrels until Leyte Gulf. The number of practice shoots with those guns was really low and not many rounds were fired in each shoot. From what I recall most were about 1 round per gun. If so it would account for her shooting very well initially but not getting many additional h its.

 

^
you can say the same about the missouri and new jersey. they had no real combat experience before leyte gulf (and after.) if they met the Y&M out of san bernardino, it would have been like denmark strait, both would feel out and see who gets the shot in. speed is useful for escaping and maybe choosing the time to fight. but if you're a battleship, you're there to fight, not run away. radar is good for putting in the first shot. but victories are rarely won with the first two salvos. two battleships fighting will invariably close and gunners are sure to switch to visual.

 

I'd disagree with that last line. Why would Iowa play the other guy's game? Why not use her radar, which was very good?

 

You could but you wouldn't be correct.

First of all I wasn't talking about combat experiance I was talking about firing their guns. Practice shoots for instance are a good way to get a handle on the warm gun effect if you fire several rounds from each gun. However the Iowas did indeed have some real combat experiance even if it wasn't fighting vs other battleships. The Nowaki shoot in particular (although only New Jersey and Iowa took part in it) would have been very useful in regards to a battleship vs battleship engagement at long range.

To some extent all battles are like this. On the otherhand the crews of the Iowas had extensive practice in using radar and in firing their guns and a huge edge in sea time.

Radar of the time allowed for repeated salvo's at ranges well beyond even aided vision. Arial spotting had proved a dissapointment at best and radar had proved to be far supperior especially in the hands of well trained operators with a command that knew how to use it (Lee was a commander who insisted on the former and illustrated the latter). Furthermore the doctrine of both Japan and the US was to engage at long range (i.e. over 25,000 yards and that's based on the pre radar doctrine). Yamato also had a radar but I believe it was good for range only and not nearly as well integrated into her fire control system (I also don't know at what range she could, if indeed she could at all, spot fall of shot). The Iowa had the ability to engage at over 35,000 yards and maintain the range in that vacinity where the Yamato had little or no chance of hitting back and where the Yamato was almost completely vulnerable to the Iowa's guns. Your supposition about closing is not well supported. Again from what I've read Lee had his battleships practice firng through/over smoke screens. At Surigao strait the only reason that fire wasn't opened at 30,000 yards was the limited amout of AP ammo on hand (it would have meant that the MKIII ships probably wouldn't have participated at all).

 

Interesting LWD. (happiness is a) Warm gun. Thinking there are computers now to calculate barrel sag. Back in the day though..." The German naval gun is made of three tubes sweated together, with a liner carrying the rifling inside them." while "The British naval gun comprises an inner tube carring the liner, bound with wire, with an outer tube over that"- from Warships of WWI.

Wonder how the Japanese naval guns were manufactured, and if their guns were more able to fire first shots more accurately...Also wonder if the wire wound around the liner on the British gun allowed the barrel to warm up faster than the German sleeve, permitting more accurate fire sooner...Or did the manufacture of naval guns change between the wars.

 

The Yamato's guns were a bit different than the majority of Japanese guns apparently (there dual purpose 3.9" gun was also a bit of an oddity). From: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_18-45_t94.htm

It then goes on to give a barrel life of 150-250 rounds. This may be part of the explanation of why there were so few practice shoots.

 

What a great site. Thanks

 

Some of the info is a bit "long in the tooth" now but it's usually the first place I go for information concerning naval ordinance. The technical board also has some great articles.

 

Iowa may or may not have won, but Yamato's performance at Leyte Gulf exceeded all expectations. As Robert Lundgren's new book shows, yamato's optical fire directors on the morning of 10/25/1944 turned in a performance for the ages.

Yamato crippled the escort carrier White Plains with a shot that travelled 19.65 MILES, by far the longest shot in naval history;

She sank USS Johnston with a broadside of her forward 18" batteries, 3 of which hit Johnston, with a fourth shell possibly passing through the ship, followed seconds later with the impact of all 3 of the 6" shells fired by her forward secondary batteries. Yamato fired only ONE salvo at Johnston from 14,000 ards when Johnston emerged from a squall after firing her torpedoes and blowing the bow of a Japanese cruiser; 4 out of 6 18" shells hit Johnston, and all 3 of the 6" shells hit.

Yamato sank USS Hoel with her 6" secondary batteries; Hoel had heroically engaged Yamato one-on-one and several of her 5" shells bounced off yamato's armor; Hoel fired her torpedoes forcing Yamato to turn around to outrun them, but not before Yamato peppered Hoel with 6" shells, sending her to the bottom;

It took Yamato about 10-15 minutes to outrun Hoel's torpedoes, at which point she turned back into the battle and delivered the "kill shot" on the escort carrier Gambier Bay - Gambier Bay had been hit by multiple Japanese ships, but she was underway, albeit at a slower speed, and making its escape along with the rest of Taffy 3's carriers - when a late 6-shot 18" salvo from Yamato bracketed Gambier Bay, with one of the shells hitting her forward engine room, which sank her within minutes. Photos of this exact salvo exist and can be seen on my Yamato website. Moments later Gambier Bay is dead in the water and starting to list.

You can get Robert's book on Leyte Gulf, which has just been released, here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/160888046X/sr=1-1/qid=1401990301/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1401990301&sr=1-1

My own Yamato/Musashi Archive Photo gallery is here: http://www.battleshipyamato.com/

 

You are wrong. Yamato hit White Plains at Samar from a distance of 19.65 MILES (34,000+ yards). You can go to my website and see photos taken from Kitkun Bay showing Yamato's second and third salvo of that morning bracketed White Plains with the third salvo being the one that delivered the shell that exploded directly under her keel, causing significant damage and knocking her out of the war. In her only performance against enemy ships Yamato's fire direction was deadly accurate. I would HIGHLY recommend that you consider reading Robert Lundgren's book (see link in the post above) because it is the definitive analysis of the Battle off Samar. The performance of Yamato is only one of a number of areas where American historical conclusions based on faulty analysis and an out-of-hand dismissal of IJN after-action reports about this battle are corrected. The Japanese themselves have had a much more accurate view of this battle from the beginning, but their accounts have simply not been translated and thus have not been available over here. Robert, OTOH has done ALL of the researchwork from "point zero" and the book is a fascinating read.

In a daytime engagement Yamato could hit Iowa before Iowa could retaliate. Even given Yamato's 18" guns longer reload time than 16" guns of Iowa, in a daytime engagement, one on one, Iowa would have been in trouble. At night, of course, the Iowa's radar ranging would indeed have turned the odds in her favor.

Now, if you give Yamato the same radar ranging as Iowa had, Iowa would be history whether the battle took place at night or during the day. With equal radar equipment, Yamato would have sunk her before her guns could reach Yamato.

Her performance that morning is tantalizing evidence that in a world without the dominant aircraft carrier, the Yamato Class might well have been the "ultimate naval weapon" that they were designed to be in the Pacific ...