what if the germans won at Stalingrad

yeah. If the americans had not aided the Soviets, they might have not been able to turn the tables as soon or as decisively.

 

worst case scenario would be that, the russians would have retreated to Siberia and wage a guerilla war from there, but will not be a major threat to the germans.

Without the eastern front the germans or axis would have eventually taken over continental Europe, including england and the middle east. then it would be US versus japan and germany.

Then a huge sea war over the pacific and atlantic would have taken place. between canada/US/remnats of UK versus JP and Gr.

My own personal opinion

 

Even without Russia pressing them, could the Germans have take England? In other topics the consensus seems to be that they couldn't. Hence your scenario doesn't work out.

Besides, I don't think the repercussions of a defeat at Stalingrad would have been that great.

 

quote Even without Russia pressing them, could the Germans have take England. quote

There was a book Operation Sealion in which some english and german commanders got togather ( postwar) and played/debated if germany had invaded england, it turn out that 9/10 times the germans would have won.

 

Which book was this? Every realistic account I have heard of Seelowe/Sealion has the Germans losing, unless you're going to postpone Barbarossa and wait till about 1943 or so to invade.

AFAIK the postwar wargames had the Germans losing by about the same ratio, not winning.

 

points out that theoretical wargames are not giving a clear picture

anyway, once Russia is defeated the germans can start building more U-boats (once the panzerdivisions are back on strength you don't need additional tanks.)
the oil in the caucasus can be used to keep the italian navy on sea (they stopped their naval operations because of too few fuel) dus you threathen Malta, forcing the British to sent more ships to Malta.
This makes the home fleet weaker so it would be easier to chross the channel. and with everthing concentrating on U-boats, Donitz would have soon a thousand U-boats of which 300 would be on sea all times. taking out the convoys and keeping britanny weak.

 

A battle for a single city woudnt decide the fate of the world. What would the germans get exactlly? A few miles of rubble? Its not like they would capture hundreds of thousands of tanks and men like the soviets did with uranius. The soviets still had vast amounts of men and the exellent t-34s, hugh amount of space with with to retreat, Lend-lease (it could still come from achanglesk or even siberia.

 

That's what Hitler said in 1940 - and as a consequence, he faced vastly technologicaly superior Russian tanks in 1941!

 

well, i make him say that after Russia is defeated, not when he still has to attack them.

 

If the germans took Stalingrad it would have just delayed the historical end. You say the oil in southern russia would have supplied the germans you better read more, the russians burned the entire oil fields. a german officer looking over the ruins said it would take 2 years to repair. The germans lost there chance of victory when 1941 came to a close. Yes losing the 6th armee at stalingrad sealed the fate of the germans. invasion of USA hahah they could not even get to Great Britian. To do that ou need a larger navy then your opponet and the germans were no where to that of Great Britian and the USA.

 

hmm, russia would be liberated of communism :kill:

 

yeah and forced to facism
gret deal :roll:

 

lol, yes of course, after being forced to facism, germany would attack Japan (from the territory of the fomer UdSSR) and of course the Wehrmacht would kick Hiro Hito´s ass.

But
after 10 years of war germany would be out of power and the United States would be the only powerful nation on earth, so it´s just a walk-through for the democracy and we wouldn´t have the cold war (Cuba, Vietnam, DDR, Berliner Mauer etc) and all the sh*t like that.

:smok:

Regards,
Che.

 

Again I ask, what makes you think a victory at Stalingrad would automatically mean complete victory over the USSR? In an earlier post I already argued that taking the city itself wouldn't actually take the Germans far, and definitely it is a stretch to assume that the Soviets would simply roll over and play dead after losing Stalingrad.

 

even the german general staff was against the attck because it was unnecesarry and endagered their flanks wich was in the end the reason for the german defeat

 

anyway, i think barbarossa had gone bad from the beginning

1) stopping after taking Smolensk for two weeks => they could have captured moscow but no
2) no preparation for the winter => how stupid can you be
3) the siege of leningrad => oke, starving the city during the winter i can agree from military point of view but as soon as it's spring you take the city. after that the troops of army group north came available.
4) not using the kriegsmarine to block Murmansk => with Murmans gone, the Russias wouldn't recieve much britisch supplies

 

IIRC from my history A-level, the plan of the Germans was to push the Soviets back over the Urals then consolidate. At that point they would have everything they set out to get, Lebensraum, agriculture and a huge slave population to use and abuse as they saw fit.

There was never any serious intent as I recall to completely conquer the Soviet Union, just the parts Germany wanted, and by (Hopefully) capturing the Soviet's main industrial centres they would cripple the ability of the Soviet Union to mount a counter-offensive.

There were no plans to go "kicking Hiro-hito's ass" that I've ever heard of.

Quillin, Military Wargames are a reasonable indication of how things probably would go, they were designed so that the military can test out options before actually committing men and equipment. We are not talking about a couple of teenagers staging Seelowe with a set of Axis and Allies. IIRC the Post-war Seelowe wargames were carried out in many cases by the German and British officers that would have actually been carrying out the invasion and defence.

Military Wargames are still used by militaries today, albeit computerised in many cases.

Just as an example, according the Peter C Smith Japan staged wargames of the planned Midway action before committing vessels to it, the results peculiarly prophetic, with Japan suffering heavy losses and being repulsed (However pro-Yamamoto staff officers over-ruled the Umpires and proclaimed the wargames a Japanese victory, giving the go-ahead to the actual operation).

 

well, in that case, i did a little study about Seelöwe (since the navy is my speciality). i'll do two post. the first will be the original seelöwe, the second will be how i would do. okay, here we go

ORIGINAL SEELÖWE

as date i take around the 20th of september which in my opinion was the last change of still doing a landing.

Germany: first wave of forces during the night. much of the British shores are very weakly protected. at dawn, the landing with support of the luftwaffe
Brittany: sends out the RAF to bombard the beachheads
G: sends the luftwaffe

=> on the 15, the RAF was almost out of action so their's a big change that the RAF will be defeated. especially when the German forces capture radartowers and knock them out

B: sends in the RN
G: responds but can only send DD's, U(boats) and E(boats) + Stuka diverbombers

=> stuka's were very effective against ships as seen at dunkirk

B: will probably send DD's, CL's and CA's since the germans have a weak invasion fleet
G: will send out their BB's and the PocketBB's. (probably not. Raider isn't the type of guy who's willing to take risks. when Gneisenau and Scharnhorst attacked the Glorious he replaced the commanding officer (vice admiral Marshall))
B: will send their BB's and CV's
G: will destroy those CV's and BB's since a Me109 is better then a Swordfish and those old battleships don't have much AA-Guns. so they are easy targets
B: will probably retreat their BB's and CV's, depending on how much losses they are willing to take
as respons, they'll send ALL their DD's, CL's and CA's
G: only light naval forces, they'll have a masacer

=> corridors can't be protected on the orriginal way (the plan had three invasion beaches) once those german warships are wipped out the coridors a free for a brittish attack. Seelöwe has a failurerate of 100% but the British will pay a high price

 

As well as the tens of millions of deaths 10 years of german rule from the urals to the adlantic would cause, remember hitler would have 100 million slavs to play with who were viewed as just as sub-human as the jews.

 

MY SEELÖWE

=> i have only one invasion. i'll attack dover since the corridor shall be the shortest.
dover is well protected so, i'll have to land around the area

G: an invasion with as many troops as possible and a lot of tanks. the army must be very mobile and the british have very few tanks since a lot of them had to be abandoned at dunkirk. a couple days earlier i concentrate a lot of DD's, U's and E's near calais and i stop attacking london to attack the RAF, forcing them to withdraw further landinward
B: counteroffence of the RAF, it will be an all or nothing airbattle
G: the luftwaffe, which i'll concentrate in only one sector (dover) will wipe out the RAF
B:send in the RN
G: the KM is used only on the flanks of the corridor (since the KM is very small, i have to use everything as good as possible) as the RN:approaches, i'll attack with all i have and create a masacer ammong the RN.
meawile, i'll let my BB's and PBB's leave the harbor for a small cruise on the north sea. the RN will possibly view this as a new attack and will send in ships to intercept but my ships will return to the port once the british are staring to arrive
the Stuka's are attacking the heavier ships
B: will they return their BB's and CV's?????

=> this is were the whole attack stands or falls. if they retreit, the operation can succeed since my u boats can sink more ships with the same amount of torpedo's (a BB and CV need mostly three to four torpedo's)
If the retrait is hapening, the corridor will be safe so my forces can beat the British (the wehrmacht is still beter then the British). once dover is taken, i can supply fatser meaning i can break out

if the RN doesn't retrait = FAILURE

so, this is a plan which in the best case has about 60% of succes. (Dover will possibly be very hard to take and more and more division will opose the germans as time passes by making it more difficulter to break out. and my panzers will constantly need fuel which has to be transported)