Rommel - a holy cow?

:-?

War crimes by both sides huh - I don't remember that at Nuremberg.

 

True, but is this a justification? If Rommel can still be held responsible for committed war crimes then we must do so. The fact that war crimes happen in wartime regardless of side does not mean that those who order them to be committed or stand idly as they are committed are free of blame.

 

No it is not justification, but he did not give evidence except for that order which I asked the details of. Which I have asked Varyag the details of given it has only been a few hours and I didnt expect a response until at least tomorrow I will keep it with an open mind.

Roel I believe you said this on the same subject when we were discussing it a while back.

http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopi ... yer#100335

 

It has to do with pointing out that Rommel had his flaws as well.

That warcrimes were committed by both sides is just an ad hoc argument, the issue here is Rommel. Warcrimes worht mentioning is the slaughter of a nomadic tribe in North Africa and the killing of colonial troops after their capture, both of which happened under Rommel's jurisdiction. He did not order these crimes, and it is not likely that he knew about them, but it proves that the war in North Africa wasn't as chivalrous as some would like it to be. But the orders to kill Italian soldiers on sight was given by Rommel personally.

Rommel's order as Oberbefehlshaber HG B, 29 Sept 1943, regarding the treatment of Italian soldiers:

"Any sentimental second thoughts on the part of German soldiers towards members of Badoglio guerillas wearing the uniform of our former comrades-in-arms are entirely unsuitable. Any one of them fighting against German soldiers has given up any claim on our mercy and should be treated with the harshness such rabble deserve when they turn their weapons against their friends.
This opinion must immediately become the general understanding of all the German forces. A corresponding warning should be broadcast to the Italians on all Italian radio stations".

 

As it should have been... At that time the order was given, German soldiers were being attacked by Italian soldiers, the Geneva convention would not forbid Rommel to make such an order... There is no law against killing enemy soldiers

 

Wrong choice of words on my behalf. The order, as you can see above, is to show no mercy. Thousands of Italian POWs were killed because of this and similar orders given by other commanders.

 

I never knew there is a flaw in having faith in your supperiors but than again maybe officers shouldn't have any faith in the politicians ie. the people that send them to war.


Rommel's order as Oberbefehlshaber HG B, 29 Sept 1943, regarding the treatment of Italian soldiers:

http://worldwar2database.com/html/italy.htm

So around the end of July Italian forces switched sides and that order Rommel ordered was over a month later. I beleive the fact that the Italians were no longer on their side, and were fighting against them justifies the order.

Can you name 1 specific one under Rommel's command? I think 1 would be sufficent.

 

The Wehrmacht didn't have much faith in the nazis at all to begin with. They should, as the Algerian Army did when the islamist party won the election a few years back, have overthrown the nazi government and restored democracy. But they didn't. Having faith in your superiour when that superiour is someone like Hitler should be considered a flaw, yes.

No, the fact that Italy switched sides doesn't justify killing Italian POWs. The Badoglio government was legal, as was their declarance of war against Germany.

Thank you for proving my point. I have showed you the orders, we know that thousands of Italian POWs were killed by the Germans. No, I don't know the name of any of them, but there many names I don't know.

 

In the details you presented it said

not one word about Italian POWs but the Badoglio.

Like I said one under Rommel's command, since you cannot name one that links him to any of the killings thus the claim holds no merit.

Since I asked for evidence that such a killing occured under the orders and command of Rommel which was not presented, therefore it does not prove your point. Only because an order was issued does not mean it was under his command, not to mention the order you provided does not mention killing POWs.

Anyone fighting against German soldiers is pretty straight forward does it not?

 

That Rommel refers to Italian soldiers as guerillas doesn't change any historical facts, this is just the retorics of a war criminal. The Badoglio government was the Italian governement, those who fought on their side weren't "Badoglio guerillas" but Italian soldiers.

Ad hoc arguments. Or pure BS in plain speak.

The order was issued by Rommel. Why would Rommel issue a specific order to the onvious task of fighting the enemy? What do you think he meant by having the Italians "treated with the harshness such rabble deserve"? The German soldiers under his command obviously interpreted his orders as to kill Italian POWs, because that is exactly what they did.

 

I did, and in this topic I said "If Rommel can still be held responsible for committed war crimes then we must do so." That is to say, if Varyag couldn't prove that it was Rommel himself who gave the order, then on what I wrote above I would have to agree with you that Rommel was not a war criminal. However, Varyag has given enough proof.

My main point in that post, though, was that you can't say "atrocities were committed on all sides" as a defensive argument for someone who might be guilty of them. It's still wrong even if everyone does it.

 

That is their own interpretation of the order, as you said interpredation which means that is not necesarially what was ment by it. Also I asked you to point out 1 instance of Italian POWs being killed under Rommel's command which was not supplied.

By the way I thought that Kesselring was in charge of Italy not Rommel.

I did not try to justify it I just ment is that with just one order that is subject to interpretation (that the order is talking about POWs which I can't say I understand because it does not mention POW anywhere in there but guerilla as in enemy combattent) with no actual proof of killing of Italian POWs under Rommel's command.

 

Sorry for the double post but I found some information on a couple massacres in Italy because you could not find a single one under his command. I did not find one that occured under his command against Italian POWs but I did find one about 2SS Das Reich in France, which likely was in his command. It is the last on on the list but it was not under his orders.

Marzabotto massacre
September 29 and October 5, 1944 soldiers of 16.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Reichsführer-SS, led by Sturmbannführer Walter Reder, killed 955 people in the territory of Marzabotto, Monzuno and Grizzana Morandi

(1)On November 21 1943 transferred to France

Sant'Anna di Stazzema
On August 12, 1944, SS of 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Reichsführer SS rounded up 560 villagers and refugees - men, women, children - and shot, then burned them. The village was never rebuilt, and stands as a memorial.
(1)

Cefalonia Massacre
Occured after September 8, 1943 with Italian resistance on the Island of Cefalonia. For the order you have presented to be valid on this the Germans would have needed to invade for 3 weeks for 29 September and massacre the Italians within 2 days because fighting stopped before end of September. Not to mention thousands made it out alive not to mention one of the transports hitting a mine.

Massacre of Kalavryta
on 13 December 1943
(1)


Oradour-sur-Glane

 

The last 2 were situated in Greece;
Cefalonia is a Greek island of the Ionian Sea while Kalavryta a town in Pelloponesos. So nothing to do with Italy--except that the Germans massacred the Italian soldiers stationed at Cefalonia.
At Kalavryta the Germans rounded up most of the citizen male population and massacred them, which was followed by the burning of the town.

 

True, I was looking for massacres commited by the Germans that occured around the time period and close to where Rommel was located. I could not find one that occured under Rommel's orders and 1 possibly under his command, it does not say I assume knowledge of who was in command of 2SS during Oradour-sur-Glane.

Varyag unless you can provide evan one example of Italian POWs being killed under Rommel's orders. Just to note that he had around 55 days between issuing the order which you provided with him transferring to Italy not to mention he was not in command of the German forces in Italy.