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The best German pilot after Marseille

Discussion in 'North Africa: Operation Torch to Surrender of Tuni' started by Kai-Petri, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Werner Schröer[Note 1] (12 February 1918 – 10 February 1985) was a German World War II fighter ace credited with shooting down 114 enemy aircraft. He served in the Luftwaffe from 1937, initially as a member of the ground staff, until the end of World War II in Europe on 8 May 1945, by which time he had reached the highest ranks of combat leadership.[2] Schröer was the second most successful claimant of air victories after Hans-Joachim Marseille in the Mediterranean, and was decorated with the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords.

    Schröer.jpg
     
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  2. MarChant

    MarChant Member

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    Interesting use of the adjective "best"...

    The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords is "just" a bronze medal, coming third after the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords and Diamonds (Marseille, Mölders, Galland, Gollob, Graf) and the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves and Swords and Diamonds (Rudel). So in the Führer's eyes, he wasn't that special apparently.

    Of course, Rudel was better at ground-targets, but even in air victories, Gordon Gollob was credited with 150, far more than the 114 credited to Schröer. Then there's Hermann Graf, credited with 202. That's just absolute numbers, though. If you take in account the ratio of confirmed kills per combat missions, then Schröer is the absoulte best with 0.57 kills per mission. Second would be Gollob with 0.44 k/m and Marseille only third with 0.41 k/m.

    A quick top 10 of WWII Luftwaffe Aces with +100 kills:
    1. Schröer 0.57
    2. Gollob 0.44
    3. Marseille 0.41
    4. Ademeit 0.28
    5. Graf 0.24
    6. Bär 0.22
    7. Brendel 0.21-.24 (total missions unclear)
    8. Hahn 0.19
    9. Mölders 0.16
    10. Galland 0.14
    Rudel flew over 2,530 combat missions and claims about 1005 kills (both ground and aerial) but it is unclear how many were actually credited, so I left him out of the rankings. If you take his claims in account, he would come in fourth with 0.39 k/m, between Marseille and Ademeit.
    (Obviously, there were many more Luftwaffe Aces and I didn't take the time to check them all, so my top 10 ranking may be missing some.)

    So, in my opinion Schröer actually was the best, before Gollob with Marseille only third, but then again, I'm not the one handing out the medals...
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Sorry for being not enough accurate to describe the pilot and his area of action. The thread was in the Africa section and Schröer was the second best in the Mediterrranean area, not the whole WW2. Yes, there were many German pilots making 200+ and some even 300+ kills.

    As I collect autographs, being rewarded oak leaves in my eyes is a big thing and it shows in the numbers of their autographs available as well the price, so swords and diamonds were only given to truly "gifted" pilots.

    Thanx for the list of ratio of confirmed kills per mission.

    I read a couple of books of the German fighter pilots in the Mediterranean and when the US was occupying the air space with fighters with other Allied fighter pilots the German losses were massive, so even surviving the campaign in the area was practically a miracle, I think.

    Aces of the Luftwaffe - Werner Schroer

    Cheers MarChant!
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  4. MarChant

    MarChant Member

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    Ah yes, I missed the area of action, sorry for that. Thanks for pointing it out. But even then, considering the ratio, Schröer still beats Marseille IMHO. And he survived, contrary to Marseille unfortunately, wich also was a big achievement as you mentioned.

    And of course, being awarded the Oak Leaves absolutely is a big thing; in the case of Rudel I believe that Hitler favoured him (probably/partly because he was an outspoken Nazi), so much as to invent a whole new grade of the award. And for Möllers and Galland getting diamonds, I think those were not only for their flying skills but also for other merits in the military business.
     
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  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    German Aircraft Losses, Mediterranean
    Theater-November 1942-May 1943


    Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945

    Losses followed by

    Percent of Total Force Structure
    10.11.42.

    Fighters 888 62.6
    Bombers 734 58.3
    Twin-Engine Fighters 117 41.1
    Dive Bombers 128 35.2
    Transports 371 31.5
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  6. the_diego

    the_diego Active Member

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    I still think the greatest was Galland. Shot down twice in one day.
     
  7. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    Marseilles was not that good. When compared to RAF losses, many of his claims have no basis.
     
  8. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    So why has Erich Hartmann not being mentioned? " The most successful fighter ace in the history of aerial warfare"
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hartmann was an Ostfront pilot. Kills were considered 'easy'. In the West and the Mediterranean/Afica enemy pilots were a tougher nut to crack.

    I though read that Marseille was an incredible pilot to consider the enemy plane position when he shot, the enemy plane flew through his shots. So usually under Attack the bombers started flying round and round but Marseiille could break this formation By shooting planes down with shooting a distance in front of the planes and getting a kill one By one.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  10. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Rudel was shot down several times and his leg was amputated. He even escaped from the Russian zone after being shot down. Still he continued flying.

    Galland was great, however, early on he was taken to Luftwaffe 'paper work' so we do not know what he could have achieved if he had continued as fighter pilot.
     
  11. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    Deflection shooting is tough. A Higher Call by Makos(?) has a good discussion on the questionable scoring by fighters in Africa.
     
  12. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    My avatar, Clive Caldwell invented shadow shooting in Africa...would get his flight to fly low and practice shooting each other’s shadow...Caldwell was a master deflection shooter...
     
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  13. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    That's a splendid method of learning CAC. Instant feedback from the desert whether you're leading sufficiently for deflection shooting,
     
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  14. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Wow! Should read more about his method, Any book on this? Usually the idea was to attack from higher above with the sun behind you.
     
  15. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    I think that was training only. You aim ahead of the shadow and if the shadow flies into the bullets' path, you've done you're job. Instant feedback. Trouble is you better not slam into terra firma.
     
  16. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    The RAAF took it up for official training...and I beleive the RAF AND USAAF also...to what extent I don’t know...
     
  17. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Active Member

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    If the sun was at your back (which is good fighter technique anyway) it seems like it'd be pretty helpful for one's gunnery, so long as you avoided digging any trenches.
     
  18. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. If they were training in the morning, they'd fly west towards the Germans and if in the afternoon, west towards the Nile.

    I've never done any research, but wouldn't it stand to reason for the Soviets to attack in the morning with the sun on their back? I know for the Western Allies in Northern Europe it probably didn't matter what time of the day they attacked. Or am I wrong on both issues?
     
  19. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Active Member

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    I don't think so. Whoever has the sun at their back has two disadvantages:

    1) They are silhouetted.

    2) They're looking into darkness if attacking westward.

    With all due respect, I think you might be. All offensives require plenty of thought given to timing, and the aerial component only adds another layer to that issue.
     
  20. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Attacking from the sun made you 'invisible' to the flying pilots. The sun light was so strong that you never saw the enemy plane. This was the strategy for all countries.
     

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