Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Did "unconditional surrender" lengthen the war in Europe?

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1943 - 1945' started by Bryan Kimmey, Feb 17, 2023.

  1. Bryan Kimmey

    Bryan Kimmey New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
  2. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,283
    Likes Received:
    847
    Although the Germans used unconditional surrender in their propaganda, both Nazis like Himmler and Goring and the anti-Nazi conspirators believed they could make a deal with the western Allies, in the latter case after the removal of Hitler. Himmler for one continued right up until the end - and beyond, as a prisoner he sought to meet with Allied leaders.
     
  3. Owen

    Owen O

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,765
    Likes Received:
    760
    Why have you included a link to 1989 tv adverts to your post ?
     
  4. Bryan Kimmey

    Bryan Kimmey New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    Subtle plug for my non-ww2 history pursuits.
     
  5. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    953
    Likes Received:
    255
    Hitler was a firm believer in last minute miracles like the one that saved Frederick the Great. He would never have surrendered.

    Neither would the Japanese who were ven more fanactical. They would have women and children charge any invader with spears rather than surrender.
     
  6. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    3,055
    Location:
    Stirling, Scotland
    It wasn't just FDR's idea, of course.
    Can't access the Casablanca papers in the Avalon Project just now, but I think this quote from a contemporary source illustrates the reasoning-
    "Absolute victory in this war will give greater opportunities to the world because the winning of the war in itself is proving that concerted action can accomplish things. Surely we can make strides toward a greater freedom from want than the world has yet enjoyed. Surely by unanimous action in driving out the outlaws and keeping them under heel forever we can attain a freedom from fear of violence."
    Avalon Project - A Decade of American Foreign Policy 1941-1949 - Address by the President Before the Canadian Parliament at Ottawa, August 25, 1943 (Excerpts)
     
    Biak likes this.
  7. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    14,291
    Likes Received:
    2,609
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Regardless of the response of the German and Japanese leaders, the Allies saw unconditional surrender as necessary. By making sure of the absolute defeat of the Axis, they saw an opportunity to prevent a repeat of WW 1. Since the bulk of that fighting was in France, the German leaders were able to promulgate the idea the Germany was "stabbed in the back". Unconditional surrender would prevent that. I don't know that it prolonged the war. Even when victory was impossible, Germany and Japan continued fighting. Reference Kershaw's "The End" (Germany) or Barrett's "140 Days to Hiroshima" (Japan) to understand the fanaticism of many in both countries.
     
  8. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,149
    Likes Received:
    2,509
    It takes total capitulation to end the desires of those whom reach too far. Had Germany & Japan only reach a short distance the World would be a different place today.
     
  9. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    372
    Of course, it lengthened the war! If the Allies had wanted to end it earlier, then they would have said so. The July 20th plot would have had a lot more German support if the Allies had stated that Hitler & Co. had to go before they would agree to anything.
    However, "unconditional surrender" was necessary because of the Holocaust, which the Allied leaders pretty much knew about. The term "unconditional surrender", tied with the stupid leaking of the Morgenthau Plan definitely led to the Germans fighting harder.
     
  10. Bryan Kimmey

    Bryan Kimmey New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2022
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    10
    I'd say that that is only generally true. There were reasonable factions within the Japanese establishment who saw the writing on the wall (maybe even the emporor himself?), but it would have been suicide to speak out too loudly against the militaristic nationalists.
     
  11. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,149
    Likes Received:
    2,509
    With 'conditional' demands it can actually extend conflict. Though the war is lost, continue discussion prolongs warfare in the disillusioned idea that the protagonist can save face and retain that which they had no right or logical reason to attain.
    Unconditional states exactly that, Capitulate or risk everything.
    WW1 is a good example.
     
    Carronade likes this.
  12. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,283
    Likes Received:
    847
    Anyone who thinks the war could have ended on terms other than unconditional surrender should at least take a stab at suggesting terms the Allies and Germany or Japan could agree on.
     
  13. Ricky

    Ricky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    11,974
    Likes Received:
    105
    Location:
    Luton, UK
    It is a very commonly-seen statement. Personally I do wonder. Obviously the Nazi leadership played up the propaganda aspect of this to keep their troops inspired, and in that sense it did help prolong the war. But in terms of an earlier surrender that would have required a more rational leadership in Germany, which really really wasn't the case. Hitler wanted to burn his own nation rather than lose the war
     

Share This Page