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August 24th, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Kenraali  |
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Ok, RedBaron, you do know what it was like.
Itīs your turn to ask now!
More on the MRC body armour:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/equipment/mrc.htm
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August 24th, 2004, 12:40 PM
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Sticking with the Arnhem theme...
100 of which gun were issued for 'combat trials' to the South Staffordshires?
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August 24th, 2004, 01:34 PM
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Dohhhhh...I should know this - but I don't !.... [img]redface.gif[/img]
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August 25th, 2004, 01:33 AM
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Sterling Sub Machine guns?
Peter
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August 25th, 2004, 06:19 AM
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The Patchett ?
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August 25th, 2004, 09:03 AM
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Correct Martin, The Patchett!
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August 25th, 2004, 09:34 AM
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Awe Martin, not fair! 
Just for info the Patchett was also referred to as the "Sterling (Patchett)" in its prototype days of WWII. It was Subsequently referred to as the "Sterling" SMG when later versions were adopted by the British Army in the 50's and 60's and was still in service until the arrival of the SA80 in the early 90s. I had the pleasure of firing one about 20 years ago.
Ah well [img]smile.gif[/img]
Peter
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August 25th, 2004, 11:28 AM
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The Patchett did not become the Sterling till after the war when re-introduced in 1953.
At the time of Arnhem it was called the Patchett Machine Carbine 9mm. It was never referred to as the Sterling during the war, this was a post-war name often misused by authors in the post war years.
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August 25th, 2004, 12:53 PM
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Actually, I'll be fair & let PeterJ have this one....
I was stumped, and when he said 'Sterling' I realised the answer. I'd never have got it otherwise.
BTW, I've never, ever, seen a photo of one of these being carried into action at Arnhem.
Over to you, Peter ! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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August 25th, 2004, 01:16 PM
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Martin, as always, you're a gentleman. That was my one and only chance of getting an answer right and I still screwed it up. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Sticking with Arnhem.
The Horsa was the most numerous glider used in the Arnhem operation. Common loads included an Airlanding platoon, 75mm Howitzer/jeep/trailer, 6 pdr AT gun/Jeep/Trailer, recce/admin jeeps, etc.
Off the top of my head, I can only recall three types of load for the larger Hamilcar gliders at Arnhem. In basic terms state all three types of load to get the question right. And if you can name a fourth, you're a star
All the best,
Peter
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August 25th, 2004, 06:11 PM
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Hamilcar loads at Arnhem...
17-PDR and bren or 6cwt truck
2 x Bren carriers
2 recon jeeps
75mm Howitzer and tow
Air control radar set
d4 tractor with angledozer
48 panniers
carrier and 8 motorcycles
jeep and carrier with slave batteries
three rota trailers
Then there are the specialist ones for 1st Allied Airborne HQ...
Other loads at Rhine and D-Day...
Tetrach
Locust
Two Scout cars
25 pdr and tow
Bofors SPG
Bailey pontoon
scraper
grader
bulldozer
 I think I have missed one or two...
[ 25. August 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: TheRedBaron ]
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August 25th, 2004, 06:26 PM
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A fair, and not easy question.....
Hamilcars at Arnhem carried:
2 x Airborne Carriers each
or
1 x Morris C8/AT Mk 3 + Ordnance QF, 17pr A/T Gun, Mk 1 + crews
plus, on the second lift only, 3 Hamilcars carrying : -
Bulk-loaded ammunition & stores + total 12 troops of 261 Field Park Coy, RE.
For the life of me I can't find a fourth load..... 
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August 26th, 2004, 12:52 AM
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OK now I'm stuck 
The answer I had in mind was Martin's.
Studying the glider allocations a while back, I'm certain the 75 Howitzers, recce jeeps and d4 tractor (a very small vehicle) were brought in by Horsa.
OTTOMH I thought the air control radar set was brought in by Waco?
RB what's your source? If it's one I don't have, I guess its yours by virtue of more than 3 load types [img]smile.gif[/img] .
All the best
Peter
PS Again from memory.
16 Hamilcars carrying 17 pdr AT (4 troops)
9 Hamilcars carrying 2 bren carriers (2 carriers per battalion)
3 Hamilcars carrying bulk supplies.
[ 25. August 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: PeterJ ]
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August 26th, 2004, 05:02 AM
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( Gotta admit my source is Arie-Jan van Hees' 'Tugs And Gliders To Arnhem' .... )
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August 26th, 2004, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Bull:
( Gotta admit my source is Arie-Jan van Hees' 'Tugs And Gliders To Arnhem' .... )
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Martin,
My same conclusions a while back, were drawn from a few Sources - The "1st Airborne Division Report on Operation Market Garden", "Arnhem Sacrifice" and Frank Steer's "Arnhem - the fight to sustain".
I get the impression that "Tugs and Gliders to Arnhem" is a very specialised study that can be relied on for the last word on this subject. Dying to get a hold of that book, but I think it's privately published and a tad rare now
Sourcing from Singapore ain't easy [img]smile.gif[/img]
Did Mr Luist ever publish his account on the Glider Pilots?
I "think" it's your question then?
All the best,
Peter
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August 26th, 2004, 08:48 AM
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My source is Otways report for the War Office on Airborne Forces during World War Two, plus a few documents from the Airboren Forces Museum in Aldershot...
Middlebrooks Arnhem, Harveys Arnhem, Hibberts Arnhem, Heclerodes Tragedy of Errors, Hagens Arnhem Lift... etc...
I wrote my Masters on Airborne effectiveness...
As for the loads you mention...
The War Office lists the D4 tractor with angle dozer as a Hamilcar load not a horsa load.
The RAdar was brought in in three Hamilcars. No Wacos were used at Arnhem, partly due to the fact it was widely disliked by British Glider pilots. Of the Three gliders carrying the sets two were destroyed on landing by German gunfire.
I will post more later, just got up!
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August 26th, 2004, 10:49 AM
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RB,
Don't have Otway's (6th AB Div wasn't he?)report, but I do have all the others you referred to. No thesis in airborne effectiveness, but Arnhem is kinda my life's study
We'll just have to disagree on the Radar. If you're referring to US Air Support Signals Team - 306th Fighter Control Squadron, they flew in 4 Wacos from Manston (See Middlebrook).
By D4 tractor do you mean the Clarkair CA1 bulldozer brought in by the 261 (Airborne) Field Park Company, RE? The Society of Friends site says it flew in by Horsa, whereas Middlebrook states the unit had one Hamilcar allocated.
Going through a domestic situation right now, so I can't access my sources . Let me check tomorrow when I visit.
All the best
Peter
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August 26th, 2004, 12:22 PM
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No probs! I would imagine alot of stuff went in things it shouldnt! Its a tad difficult to state categorically the loads of all the gliders anyway...
If you are interested in Ottways (he was in 6th, but wrote the analysis just after the war) post war analysis of the British Airborne experience it is available from the Imperial war museum. Its well worth it. It was only declassified a few years ago.
As for that dozer, the war office list it as a Hamilcar load...
Anyway... enough of glider loads! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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August 26th, 2004, 05:51 PM
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A final 'dozer word !
One Clarkair Crawler went to the Arnhem operational area. It was loaded into Horsa Glider chalk number 848 together with No 3 Detachment of 261 FP Coy, RE, one trailer, one motorcycle and ten troops. Pilots of the Horsa were Lieutenant Brazier and Sergeant Hibbert of E-Squadron, the Glider Pilot Regiment and the towing aircraft was a Dakota of 271 Squadron from Down Ampney on 18th September.
The poor old 'dozer was successfully unloaded and driven to the Hartensteim, where it sat peacefully until deliberately disabled by the Engineers prior to the withdrawal.
ALL the above information came from Arie-Jan's book ( which even includes personal interviews with one of the Engineers concerned and Sgt. Hibbert )
What a book ! I do hope to be able to meet with A-J at Arnhem - apparently he's usually to be found camping behind the Bilderberg.
RB, I think you deserve this one....I was going to be cheeky and ask about Tigers at Arnhem so that I could answer CrazyD further down....
Over to you ! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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August 27th, 2004, 12:51 AM
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RB,
Another gentleman.
Hats off to you for having the discipline to do a thesis on a subject we all obviously share a passion for. I'm stuck with construction law and disputes by vocation, but I have always wished that I could have been a military historian (But for my lousy English ).
May be we should start an OMG quiz thread?
Martin,
Hmmm... Arnhem Tigers! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Over to you RB
All the best
Peter
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August 27th, 2004, 01:18 AM
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Peter,
Your English is far better than most of my students...
Martin,
Tigers in Arnhem... OOOO a sticky subject... I am waiting for the Zwarts book to arrive before I comment on CrazyD posting, but I may have one Tiger I to add to his list! But I think he has covered them all. Interesting info he gave on the Jagdtigers, will have to look into that!
Anyway a question...
Staying with 1st Airborne but moving from Arnhem...
Who was the commander of 1st Airborne Division killed at Castellaneta in 1943 and the only British airborne general killed in the war???
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August 27th, 2004, 01:33 AM
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Hopkinson?
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August 27th, 2004, 01:52 AM
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Guess that was too easy!!!
Yup, poor old 'Hoppy' mortally wounded during an attack on a German road block...
Over to you Peter!
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August 27th, 2004, 03:02 AM
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