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October 6th, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Indeed Martin
The town I was looking for was Shanghai. So
ovel to Maltin 
Popski
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October 6th, 2003, 05:46 PM
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Thanks, Popski !
A topical 'Bulge' question - which two high-ranking US officers went on to distinguished post-war military careers but, reputedly, never spoke to each other again following a 'discussion' during the Ardennes offensive ? 
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October 7th, 2003, 08:34 PM
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Hmmm - not many takers for this one... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Here's a giveaway clue...one was a Paratrooper, the other a Tanker.....
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October 7th, 2003, 11:07 PM
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I know Patton wasn't one of them.  He didn't have much of a career after the war.
[ 07. October 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Monty Cassino ]
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October 8th, 2003, 06:24 AM
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Very vaguely the story appears in the mists of my memory.
I believe to have remembered that Ridgeway was the paratrooper.....yet again, another name springs to mind because it surprised me that he got in such a fight and never spoke to that person again. That seemed out of character. That was not Ridgeway.
I say Ridgeway and....hmmm...tanker....Bradley....
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October 8th, 2003, 12:13 PM
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Almost there, Stevin, keep going....another clue ; last Saturday morning I was drinking coffee in the building where this conversation took place !
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October 9th, 2003, 12:54 AM
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The paratrooper may be McAuliffe and I'd say that the tanker is Patton...
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October 9th, 2003, 01:09 PM
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No, Stevin is halfway there with Ridgeway - come on guys, the answer should come as a bolt from the blue.... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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October 9th, 2003, 01:17 PM
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A bolt from the blue (or a "SWAG"):
Creighton Abrams
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October 9th, 2003, 04:47 PM
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No, no - maybe I should have said a bolt into the blue....
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October 10th, 2003, 12:05 PM
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OK, I at least know where it happened -Vielsalm- and what it was about; the withdrawal of the 7th Armored Division from St. Vith to the west bank of the Salm river.
But now, who was Ridgeway's nemisis? Several opportunities; According to Chester Wilmot Hasbrouck (CO 7th Arm. Div.) was relieved from his command (and later in the day re-instated).
A Time For Trumpets describes a confrontation between Ridgeway and Gen. Alan W. Jones (of the 106th Inf. Div.?) which he also relieved.
Damn, it could even have been Monty himself!
OK, I go for Hasbrouck....
[ 10. October 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Stevin Oudshoorn ]
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October 10th, 2003, 05:02 PM
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Just one more push needed, Stevin - you are sooooo cloooose!!
MacDonald steers clear of this incident as it is hearsay - only the two men involved know exactly what happened.
Come on - it wasn't Hasbrouck ( althought he was in the same building ! ), it was....????
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October 10th, 2003, 06:46 PM
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Just for grins, and not getting smart or anything, if the two men ( Ridgeway and X )are all who know exactly what happened, and Macdonald ( the author and Army officer?) ducked it as hearsay, when Steve gets the other half of the answer, it would interest me to know how you know...
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October 10th, 2003, 07:03 PM
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OK Fred, hold on, watch this...
Gen. Alan W. Jones. Met Ridgeway after the withdrawal of the 106th over the Vielsalm bridge...wait a minute...I can see it clearler now...yes, Ridgeway met him, found Jones rather destitude, relieved him of his command and Jones suffered an heart-attack that same evening and was evacuated....
I gave my secret away in the weapons quiz... [img]smile.gif[/img]
Martin? Gen. Alan W. Jones ?
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October 11th, 2003, 06:05 AM
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Nope- wasn't Jones - an infantryman who had a 'heart attack' ( again, supposedly - an explanation that may well have been given to help preserve the reputation of a very well-meaning officer who is one of the Bulge's tragic figures, put in an almost impossible position way beyond his experience ).
Fair point - I don't 'know' ; the key word in my original question was reputedly - MacDonald, after all, is not the only historian to have written about the Ardennes Offensive....
One final give-it-away clue - he was known as the 'Sergeants' General'....
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October 11th, 2003, 09:49 AM
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Answering your Q's is like delivering 20 Lbs babies...
Sgt's General doesn't say much to me...It was fun going through the books about this one particular event, though. Know a lot more about the 7th Armored during the Bulge now!
But, here is my final Guess; Gen. Bill Hoge...
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October 11th, 2003, 09:57 AM
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Unbelievable ! Stevin, you've mentioned every officer except the one I'm after !! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Final clue : the meetings at Commanster ( just before relieving Jones at Vielsalm )were between Ridgway and Hasbrouck, Hoge, Reid of the 424th Infantry and................?????
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October 11th, 2003, 12:14 PM
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Clarke!!??
Geez, I have to read the passages again, cause I didn't get that he and Ridgeway had an one to one....
Stupid that I read over that!
Sorry! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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October 11th, 2003, 02:48 PM
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You deserve this one 100% Stevin ! ( It's always fun to make him work... [img]tongue.gif[/img] )
Yes, Bruce Clarke ( his biography was titled 'Clarke Of St Vith - The Sergeant's General' ) was exhausted and sick with gall-bladder troubles by the time of the 'fortified goose-egg'. Montgomery rightly decided that this exposed position, with 22,000 tired defenders, should be pulled back to the Salm River. Ridgway, used to fighting a 'paratroopers war' - surrounded by the enemy - disagreed. Demanding to know from Clarke and Reid the combat efficiency of their troops ( 50% & 40% ) Ridgway was seemingly unimpressed by the views of these officers 'who he did not know'. But he knew Hoge of old - and Hoge backed them up. There is a suggestion that Clarke and Ridgway exchanged hard words at Commanster.
Then, when evacuated over the Salm, Clarke was given medication for his illness, making him feel drowsy. He did not attend a meeting with Ridgway until the following morning; and was then lectured about military discipline. His reply was forceful.
And, apparently, they never spoke again.
This is admittedly a minor incident but the whole story of St Vith, with it's mass surrenders from the 106th, retreats, heroic defence by 7th Armored and engineers, etc is very interesting indeed and makes a change from endless 'Bastogne' stories. Sources include Whiting ( sorry ! ), Cunningham/Pattison, Astor, Toland and Dupuy.
Over to you, Stevin.....
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October 12th, 2003, 02:04 AM
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Very interesting, gentlemen. I confess I thought Gen'l Clarke was a Texan as we named a highway after him. But he's from New York. Here is an Oral history interview with him and after reading it, He was pretty crusty... be sure to notice he said he tied himself into a jeep and had no sleep other than in that jeep for 7 days of St Vith...I think the only reason Gen'l Ridgeway got away without needing to have two hand grenades surgically removed from his nether regions after tangling with him is that Clarke must have been just as sick as you describe.
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/clarkeb.htm
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October 12th, 2003, 07:54 AM
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Many thanks for that, Fred !
Clarke can also be seen in interview on the old 1969 video documentary 'Battle Of The Bulge' ( together with von Manteuffel ) and I have to say that I rather like Clarke - one gets the impression that he 'got the job done'.
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October 13th, 2003, 07:12 AM
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From me also many thanks for that link, Fred, that is a very good read! I hadn't come across Bruce Clarke before, but Eisenhower describes him in a very sympathetic way. Glad to know that there is a biography of the man. Will hunt for that one.
Eisenhower's The Bitter Woods was my main source in answering this question. Wilmot's Struggle For Europe was secondary as was McDonald's A Time For Trumpeths/Triumphs
I was bound to get the right answer sooner or later, as I was running out of officers anyway.
One point of attention though; Martin, you wrote that not much was heard of either after the war, but Ridgeway went on to command the UN forces in Korea after McDouglas was dismissed, am I right? That made him the most prolific US Commander at the time, I guess.
I am at work now, so I can't come up with a decent Q. Give me a couple of hours...
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October 13th, 2003, 12:50 PM
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No.... ....looking back at my first posting, I said that both Ridgway and Clarke went on to distinguished post-war careers.... Someone later put that Patton didn't have much of a career post-war, but that was being ironic I think !
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October 13th, 2003, 04:02 PM
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