For someone like Manteuffel to stand up against Hitlers Lacky like that--he indeed had also of Brass. I always did like Manteuffel--but do more so now.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Anyone? He, I think I'd have to come back with a WWII question... I bet you can't answer it...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Actually Friedrich-I can defineltey answer It-please give me just a few minutes to get my notes...

__________________
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Finally! Gotcha!

However, as armies grew, this system proved cumbersome, Under Napoleon, the French army began to break up into smaller units, each of which was an independent mini-army consistmg of infantry, cavalry and artillery and capable of doing battle on its own.

These French formations were of varying size, and their makeup was never standardized. However, Napoleon's British archrival, the Duke of Wellington (who in his long career never lost a battle) adopted this idea of mini-armies and created a standardized unit called the division. British divisions, being complete units, could be detached to fight as self-sufficient units, combined to form larger units, and interchanged. For example, a rested reserve division could replace a fatigued division in combat

I´d say the battle was Waterloo.The man was Duke of Wellington.And he got the idea from French.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________

Kai

Divisions were not a British invention by any means!

The usual 18th century formation of Wing.Division.Brigade was pretty well standardised. Wellington was still an 18th century general who did not adopt a Corps system until 1815! Indeed at Talavera in 1809 there wasn't even a divisional system. The Russians, organisationally, were on a permanent Divisional establishment through Barclay's 1807 reforms, with two divisions making up a corps. Unlike the French the Russian Corps contained no permanent attached cavalry, this was in cavalry corps.

The Prussians in 1813-1814 didn't have divisions at all, but 4 large brigades making up a corps. The Austrians had divisions early on, and introduced a Corps system in 1809.

Jumbo

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Ok, thanx Jumbo! The net just doing its tricks on me again...Well, it sounded too good to be true anyway, all the puzzle pieces fitting nicely.Like a big battle and getting the idea from French...

__________________

Doing VERY good, gentlemen!!! Actually, I have to say that Kai is correct about Napoleon and the Frenchs. So, the 2nd part of my question is answered. But the 1st and most important one is missing...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

And I know that Rommel prided himself on running his beloved Afrika Korps as such a unit!!!

__________________
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Well, this time a bit more careful approach...Rumyantsev?? ( thanx for the tip, Jumbo ).

"Administrative reforms initiated under Catherine the Great created an infrastructure designed to maintain the army in a state of reasonable readiness in times of peace by maintaining the regiments closer to the borders where they would be needed. The first organizational reform was enacted in 14 January 1763. This organized the army into eight military districts called “divisions” (divisyi) with all regiments assigned to these divisions."

From

http://www.napoleon-series.org/milit...c_rusorg3.html

and don´t forget..Mr Kutuzov!

http://www.sunbirds.com/lacquer/box/770270

The attacks on both sides of Kursk by Russians after Citadel...You are trying to teach us history, Friedrich, aren´t you??? Well, I noticed that.

__________________

I am sorry, Kai. The Russians have nothing to do with it... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No, I am not trying to teach you History...

A clue: Go back a "few" years and more Southwest from Russia.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I checked Prussia, Austria and Poland, as I knew Poland was quite a big country back then. The Swedes were huge as well, did you know that? And we Finns were there ( of course ...). There are loads of Middle European church altars in Finnish churches, those wicked thieves...

Anyway, back to business. This one goes quite along way back, but Poles had it?? No definite name though. http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/Army.html

OK, give us the answer and a new question!

__________________

I checked Prussia, Austria and Poland, as I knew Poland was quite a big country back then. The Swedes were huge as well, did you know that? And we Finns were there ( of course ...). There are loads of Middle European church altars in Finnish churches, those wicked thieves...

Anyway, back to business. This one goes quite along way back, but Poles had it?? No definite name though. http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/Army.html

OK, give us the answer and a new question!

__________________

With respect Friedrich, this is all a bit open to interpretation. We could go as far back as the Roman Legions to look at self-contained units with integral cavalry and artillery! Who knows, maybe some Egyptian or Babylonian ruler had a similar idea?

What about the Ottoman Turks, the went through hosts of ideas, but remained militarily stuck in the 17th Century.

The word "Division" could just be that: a part of an army. Equally the word Corps (d'Armee?) is bandied about to mean anything from a small body of men to a large body of men. We look fondly at Berthier's system but most countries didn't adopt it and kept cavalry seperate.

I don't think Catherine's reforms meant for the "Divisions" to take the field together, but were administrative - becoming the "Inspections" of Peter II. Barclay I think was the first modern War Minister to detail regiments to divisions which were going to fight in war during peacetime. He even had the divisional numbers put on the shoulder strap.

Although because he was Scots-German later Russian historians have liked to play down his role in favour of Kutusov (who Alexander hated) or Bagration (who hated Barclay as a foreigner), Barclay was one of the more capable allied Generals of the wars against Napoleon.

So my cash is still on Barclay.

Jumbo

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Actually Jumbo got it (but not quite well) in his first lines. I would have given it to him, but he went with the Russians... Just read his first lines and there you go!

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I suppose I need to come up with a question.

Whose portrait photograph unusually adorned Hitlers Bunker in a place which many members of his staff assumed would have been occupied by his Father?

Jumbo

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Hitler's Mother-he kept a portrait of her by his bed until his death..no wonder many thought he had an uncanny obsession with his mother! I mean, honestly, we all love our mothers but a portrait by our bedside for 56 years!!!!!

__________________
"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

PANZERKNACKER, YOU JUST BEAT ME TO IT....

But anyway, you´re rigth!This is what I got for this:

Klara Hitler died from cancer when Adolf was nineteen. She was held in love and affection by Hitler, her Jewish doctor, Eduard Bloch, later recalled: 'I have never witnessed a closer attachment.' Hitler carried her picture with him down to the last days in the bunker. Her portrait stood in his rooms in Munich, Berlin, and at his alpine residence near Berchtesgaden, Obersalzberg. His mother may well have been the only person Adolf Hitler genuinely loved in his entire life.

Another nice ( but with a twist ) answer would have been " Blondi" ???

__________________

THATS interesting--I would have thought he would have had a painting of von Bismarck--for inspiration--like Gen. George Armstrong Custer had a painting of Frainch Cavalry Marshall, Murat--for his inspiration.

__________________
Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Not so bloody fast!

Well... to hell with it...

The inspiration for the division were Roman legions (the root of our whole civilization). Each legion was a small Army that could smash anything because it was a complete and discipline-full formation. Every legion had 5.000 heavy infantry soldiers who always formed in the field and were nearly undestructable that way (in some way were based in Macedonian falange of Alexander the Great), but were also complemented by a single commander, single staff, logistic and support units: supply and support troops, engineers, logistic and rear crews, messengers, intendence, artillery, mercenairies: cavalry, archers, scouts. In total, a Roman legion had 10.000-12.000 men and what absolutely self sufficient and capable of conquesting a whole region and later civilize it. Also, Roman legions were divided in two regiments of 2.500 men each (talking about infantry) of five batallions of 500 men and 5 companies of 100 men. The soldiers were perfectly trained and paid by the state. If you were son of a legionaire you became immediately one when you were born and had to serve Rome for 20-later 25 years. But then you had certain social status and a very, very good salary, beside you had the best meals and medical attention of the Empire. Actually, this is the only time in History when men lived more years than women... [img]smile.gif[/img] And if you were a proletarian you didn't have to work, the state paid for your food and other services, as long you had children to provide the legions with men. Legionaires were not allowed to marry, but of course that everybody had non-ofitial wives and sons, but it was tolerated because those kids later became legionaires too. In emperor Augustus' time there were 38 whole legions in the Empire!!!!!!!!!!!! Ruling a five million-square miles empire with 30 million innhabitants!!! A Legion could be mobilised from Northern Italy to the Rhin in less than a month! Because of all the modern roads of the empire. Efectively, 'All roads go to Rome'. If you were an emperor you had to buy the legion's loyalty if you wanted to remain in the throne... And did you know that by the year 150 a.C. in Rome's splendor 80% of the legions were formed by non-Italians?

After a Roman legion and its 12.000 men were mobolised they went and defeat the barbarians, slaughtering EVERYBODY in the battle field they would build a fortress, with barracks, baths, parliaments, theatres, dwellings, buildings of every kind, etc. These buildings were not built by slaves, they were built by the legionaires themselves! It was very good to keep them bussy, because idleness and weapons are very dangerous together. Then the legionaires would marry Barbarian women and had kids, who learnt a mixture of Barbarian language and Latin and then became legionaires too. One example of this is a little, tiny fortress originally called Londinium. Beside, the legionaires would bring the Greek culture, the teathre, mathematics, science, jurisprudency, different kinds of food, their language. A good example is that legionaires could drink a litre of wine per day, but when they fo conquesting they didn't have enough wine, so they brought grape-seeds and they planted it near their fortresses. They planted grapes in insignificant valleys suchs as: Loire, Bordeaux, Rhin, Champagne, Cognac, etc. So, everytime you make a toste, gentlemen, you are making it for the Roman legions... Cheers! We don't only owe them wine, divisions, but our language, laws, countries, alphabet, arquitecture, arts, sports and our culture...

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

No this was a man, hence my hint at being a Father figure...

__________________
"Capital! We're nearly out of ammunition! Now we can get at them with the bayonet!" General Paddy Gough, 1st Sikh War

Friedrich the Great? Richard Wagner?

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun