Much has been recently discussed about the atrocities that German and Japanese forces commited during the war. I feel sorry for the people in these countries that have to live with the daily stigma that other ignorant people place upon them, even after all these years.

In my opinion, Russia's atrocities were worse, simply because very few people recognize that those things happened, and none of the guilty were brought to justice. It is too bad we couldn't have followed Patton's lead and taken out the Russians when we had the chance. That way there would have been no cold war.

my two cents

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Phear der PanzerPenguin!
HellFish love teh

I'm letting this thread go...for now, let's just keep it civil this time.

[ 12 June 2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Otto ]

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"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

The only thing I will say is that every nation has committed some kind of atrocity whether they started it or committed it as revenge. And yes, since the Allies were the winners, we do not hear much publicity on what was done. My grandfather witnessed the Russians commit atrocities. He witnessed the Germans committ atrocities. We ourselves know the US and Brits have committed atrocities. Facts are facts. That is it.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I dont think that a certain party will be viewing this thread or making comments--unless this certain party reads this posting as a challenge for an intelligent discussion.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[ 05 July 2002, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

You sure did Friedrich. There is no one as serious as a pissed off Hitler, is there?

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"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

Yes, definately there is not... hehehe

Otto, I liked your Patton more than your yellow Simpon´s general... But it is fine.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Sorry, I don't want to anger the Fuhrer!

Honestly, I like Patton better too, but don't get used to this one, I will wear many different avatars as time goes by.

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"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." Socrates

The Russian are like the germans: just dogs dirthy of blood unciviled people anyway!

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"Everything is relative"
Albert Einstein

I just wanted to reiterate these impressive words of wisdom, Great work SG!

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Phear der PanzerPenguin!
HellFish love teh

Yitzak,
I would think that you wouldn't be such a biggot. I have Polish Jew in my family. I also have Russian and Italian. My girlfriend is of a 2nd generation German family. None of these peoples are uncivilized or dogs, if that is what you were trying to say. Please grow the hell up. I honestly believe that it's one-sided extremists like you that cause wars, and the deaths of generations of young men.

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Living History at http://oldreliable9_47.tripod.com

Well said herr Doktor. That individual should be the last to speak. Afterall, look at the current situation in Israel. Looks alot like what he is complaining about. They have their own little cleansing party going on.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

Well said, boys! (Just boys, because I am using the term as friends) Because here is only one INMATURE, INTOLLERANT boy... OK, I am also very intollerant, but I have behaved properly, I think... I woud not like to behave in that silly way as my animal mind is telling me to.

And yes, we are dogs, with Pedigree! Hehehe!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Yitzak--you can have your opinion on Germans, but--IF you do not know them as I do or others here, you CANNOT compare them as dogs and with the Russians. Not all people in any country be bad dogs as seemed to be implied from your posting.

NOT all Isrealis are good people either as well as people from ANY other society.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Germany lost something around 7,000,000 people in WWII and were defeated. Russia lost more than 30,000,000 and were still fighting. While the Western Allies were struggling to liberate France in Summer '44, the Soviets had smashed their way across Eastern Europe conquoring the Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania, areas of Poland and were pressing on Germany. They achieved this fighting a greater proportion of the Germany Army than was ever arrayed against the Western Allies after D-Day.

What chance do you think the British/Commonwealth and Americans would have had, even if they teamed up with the remnants of the German Army? I wouldn't like to bet on it, as the Allies had an increasing technological edge with jet fighters, huge bombers, new tanks and atomic weaponry, but the slaughter would have been unimaginable.

I despise the Red Army's apparent willingness to allow its soldiers to rape and pillage as they pleased. I also despise the murderers that led the Soviet government. But Patton's idea was insane - it was practically the same as inviting the Red Army to do exactly as it had done in the East all over Western Europe, replacing Nazism with Communism.

But hey, at least there would've been no Cold War.

Well, well. We are entering to dangerous ground over here... Of course there had been no cold war, but a very HOT one! I cannot imagine the tremendous slaughterness there would have been. We must consider now that the Red Army was undoubtfuly the mightiest ground army in the world, not only because it was the largest, well supplied and with very experienced men and officers. But the country was kind of exhausted and it woud have been defeated at last by echonomical superiority of the Western allies, who were also large, well equipped and trained soldiers. But the casualties for the British and Americans would have been horrendous. I do not think they woud have liked it... To defeat the Soviets definately would have taken surely millions of men and several years of bathing in blood, because they did know how to fight!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Hmmmmmm, well I thought I was going to make quite a profound remarck or two but I think I will hold off and see where this thread goes. Usually I do not get into heated debates unless I am personally offended in some way. Shades of what I have seen on the TRF forum concerning Holacaust, etc. Well I had families fighting on both sides of the line in WW 2 and have heard all sorts of opinions and dbates about German and American atrocities during the war. As had been already stated, no army was squeaky clean. It happened and history cannot hide it. It is happening now in parts of the world we are not familiar with. Getting back to the Soviet atrocities, I know of too many examples, at leat 10 given to me by three good friends that fought in Ost Preussia during the last 3 months of the war. Cruelty was almost beyond belief against the Geramn civilian populace, and most of these were refugees trapped as they tried to escape to the Baltic and inner German lands. Revenge for 3 1/2 years of occupation.......possibly, but still, the right to slaughter innocents ? It still goes on......enough of me for the moment....

E

As the topic is 'Russian' - not necessarily Red Army - I don't think we've even mentioned Katyn yet . . .

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

This isn't exactly a profound comment, but the last time I heard someone mention the continuation of the war through an attack on the Soviet Union one thought immediately popped into my head. Would the predominantly draftee armies of the allies really have stood for it? They'd just been through a whole war, and no doubt had enough of it. I really think that the Army (at least US), including many of it's high ranking officers, would have staged some kind of mutiny rather then jump from one meat grinder into a bigger one. I'm sure many Germans may have supported the IDEA after what the Soviets did to them, but again, I wonder if the common consensus would not have been something like "one war is enough" and begin to rebuild their country. Would allied draftees fight if it was a war that "we" would have started, which is much different than how the allies, or at least some of them, got into the war in the first place? I don't by any means intend to insinuate cowadace, but all I can think that I would do if I was a foot soldier and heard that I was supposed to invade the Soviet Union would be to say "I just went through one war and I'm not gonna do it again, stockade or hanging be damned". Just a thought.

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Certainly, from talking to my parents, after six years of war most people in the UK had had enough.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

G'day

Not exactly what this thread is about but if the war kicked off between Russia and the Anglo-Americans what about the Atomic bomb????

For this thread, the Russians were treated as Untermenschen in the most horrific way, and now it was payback time. Russian propaganda would highlight the attrocities to make the soldiers fight harder, and as soon as they got into the fatherland they would take revenge. In a documentary on tv they even raped and beat women taken by the germans from their own country, speaking to them in their own language. Blinded by hate (and maybe too much wodka?)

Popski

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