Kai and Za, very well said I have to say the I do agree. I guess the way the Erich stated his point of view made me a little skeptical, but no harm done. And I have nothing against Erich I guess I just like a good discussion, lol.

Open mind is my middle name.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

So you have two middle names?

__________________
No Rest for the Wicked!

hahahahahaha nothing gets past you Za.. shhhhhh its our little secret.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

as I thought I had previously pointed out G. Nipe is using original German materials copied down during and after the battle. May I suggest a copy of his work unless you can read/understand Deutsch for the volume I mentioned; Nipes book should be read just to view the German portion of things and see wher the southern salient was fought because it is very confusing attack, retreat, and for both sides. Warning the book is repitive but you can get through it easily enough ...... also Tigers in Combat 2 for the SS Panzer Komapnies, all from German sources

info on Kursk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM3yrKkoaMo

worth watching

thats pretty good

__________________
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

Around minute 4, snow? Snow in July? This is a mishmash of other films put together!

__________________
No Rest for the Wicked!

Good video and the music is great but Za is right last I checked it doesnt snow in Russia in July.

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

well that was agoofy video for sure as I have those very same film footage.

If I may : Deutsche Wocheschau quite a bit chopped up to make a documentary. the only thing closely resembling the Kursk sphere is the beginning with the Das Reich Tiger Komapnie and at the end when it is repeateded again the with same Tiger Koampanies and Pz. Grenaider units.
Second phase of film shows early 40-41 MkIV's and short barreled Stugs not incorporated at Kursk, in fact some of it is Western front.
Winter scenes are a combination W-SS and Heer plus Luftw. Fallschirm. a mix of W-SS on the Ost front grenaiders escorting 6 long barrel stugs which destroy at least that many T-34's, something you do not witness on this film shown. Some of the fottage is also late war spring of 45 on the Western front.
Pics of knocked out T-34's and dead German civilians run over by Soviet tanks are taken from a terrible battle at Ebenrode in Ost Preussia in the fall of 44 where the Soviets lost 400 tanks.
the Luftwaffe nearly crashing on wet fields are JG 2 Fw 190D-9's and Bf 109G-10's of JG 11 on 1-1-45 at Bodenplatte in Belgium.
We then proceed back to the spring muck on the Ost front of 45 with Hetzers and the tri-2cm Fla on half-tracks ........... more mish mash and finally back in 1943 to close with Tigers and grenadiers.

note: there are actually a series of times-tapes/videos of the Germans at Kursk and the Mius in the Deutsche Wocheschau footage ....... all pure propaganda for the German folk back home

thanks for sharing the video

Erich,

Just out of curiousity what do u think about the T-34???

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

The trouble with these films they are a mishmash job the real classic film footage which pops up from time to time is the one with all those King Tigers lined up for inspection, I saw that bit of film in a Kursk documentary the King Tiger was not around for that one. All footage is interesting but don't always be fooled by any commentary.

__________________
Regards, Richard


"Open channel D"

Ya, the Panther "G"s in the snow were a give away too.
Good footages though, though as was said, many are repeats.
I've got one of the Battle of the Bulge with some of the same footages.
That one has the panthers passing those SU-76's also.
I realize Allies share weapons, but I don't recall any SU-76's being used by the Americans.
Enjoy it for what it's worth, but avoid reading the text.

__________________
"Danger Will Robinson!"

On finding accurate figures......

Do you think finding correct figures for the Eastern front will probably be always hard to find, Stalins regime held back defeats [eg Mars] and lied [eg Katyn massacre] although old Soviet secret archives are now being opened up.

On the other hand the German version of the war, written straight after the war by their historians and in particular, Wehrmacht commanders, also were prone to to be often loose with the facts.

Glantz claims that in Manstein's book Lost Victories,[which I haven't read] opposing force ratios are in conflict with those shown by archival materials of Fremde Heeres 0st Gehlen's organizations, and of the OKH. Soviet superiority's are often overstated.

He says the dominant role of German source materials in shaping American perceptions of the war on the Eastern Front and the negative perception of Soviet source materials have had an indelible impact on the American image of war on the Eastern Front. What has resulted in a series of gross judgments treated as truths regarding operations in the East and Soviet Army combat performance. The gross judgments appear repeatedly in textbooks and all types of historical works, and they are persistent in the extreme. Each lies someplace between the realm of myth and reality.

I watched it again, I enjoyed it, but it's not Kursk.
FW-190D's (Doras)?...no
Panther A's & G's?...no
T-34/85's ...no
JdPz IV's ...no
My brother told me that he Micro-Fished old New York Times from the Sundays before the attack.
There were maps of the German/Russian positions, and they predicted (from the Germans) the "Typical" Pincer Attack!
If the Russians had no spies (which they did), all they would have to have done is read an American newspaper from thousands of miles away to know the...."Secret", "Master" Plan.

All in all not a whole lot different from the American Civil War battle of Gettysburg.
Also a determining battle as to the eventual outcome of the war itself.
The South was there first, but hesitated to take the high ground and press the attack when they had greater numbers.
They paused to bring up the rest of their army, instead of pressing the attack to gain the best ground (offering a position to attack down the line). Giving the Union (North) time to consolidate positions on the 4 high points. Not to mention, bringing up reinforcements.
When the army was ready (the South), the situation was all but hopeless. Through whatever circumstances, the South made a "Head On" attack into the teeth of the North's defenses.
I hear tell that Lee was tired of war, and wanted to "END" it one way or the other by this battle.
Hmmmm? Familiar?
And that it did, in both battles.
Not to the attackers liking, and not immediately, but the outcome was assured after the enguagement.
I have seen this scenario replayed in other, at other, times throughout history. I guess when you've had enough, you don't care how it ends, as long as it does.
Just an opinion.

__________________
"Danger Will Robinson!"

It's alive, it's alive, the thread is alive!

Now seriously, I found this to be interesting for an on-line read:

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/et...lug_thesis.pdf

This is interesting too, although rather one-sided:

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/crossf...ios/ponyri.htm

__________________
No Rest for the Wicked!

http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...2/3035106.html


Any thoughts or opinions?

__________________
The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

You mean Manstein´s possible big victories, I guess?!

Maybe , maybe, but then again the Red Army was starting huge attacks to Orel and Belgorod, the second part of Kursk, and even if Manstein might have caused huge losses to the Red Army the pincers might have surrounded his troops and caused the loss of all German force there in Kursk pocket instead.

So I´d be careful there as the Red Army was pouring in troops around the Kursk salient and simply being victorious ( Manstein ) at Prokhorovka would not really count that much.

__________________

From Hitler´s Commander by S. Newton

" Even by 5th July Model´s infantry divisions remained far below established strength. Exactly one infantry division in the 9th Army was rated at the highest offensive level. And only four were deemed suitable for "limited offensive action"...."

__________________

From "Hitler´s commander" by Steven H Newton

Model and Zitadelle

" When Model reluctantly agreed to set aside major offensive action on 9 July in favor of reorganising the spearhead divisions in both the XLI and XLVII Panzer Corps sectors, he recognized that this decision was nearly tantamount to calling off the entire northern segment of Operation Zitadelle. At AGC, von Kluge instantly reached the same conclusion, but both men knew that neither Hitler not Zeitzler would countenance such a unilateral decision, especially since the southern prong of the offensive had broken through Voronezh Front´s defences and continued to push north toward Oboyan and Kursk.

Von Kluge instructed Model to meet him the following morning. It was not an optimistic meeting. Model acknowledged formally to von Kluge that the Ninth Army could not reasonably expect to create the necessary breakthrough, a position he maintained even when the Field Marshal offered him not just the 10th Panzergrenadier and 12th Panzer divisions but the 36th Infantry Division as well.All that Model would promise was a series of tactical attacks, designed as " a rolling battle of attrition " that might at least continue to attract Soviet reserves away from the southern half of the Kursk salient.To this von Kluge immediately agreed.

Given that both Model and von Kluge expected a Soviet counteroffensive any day against the weakly held northern and eastern section of the Orel salient, there are strong indications that the two men were knowingly engaged in misleading OKH and Hitler. No message left AGC for East Prussia that morning detailing the fact that the Ninth Army´s participation in Operation Citadel had effectively ended,instead, von Kluge portrayed 9 July as a brief moment of respite before a renewal of the breakthrough effort. Yet General Schmidt´s 10th Panzergrenadier division moved up to the front so slowly that it did not reach the battlefield until the morning of 12 July, while General von Bodenhausen´s 12th Panzer and General Gollnik´s 36th Infantry lagged 24 hours behind.Moreover, when the Russians did attack east of Orel on 12 July, both the Ninth and AGC reoriented themselves with suspicious rapidity.

Historian Franz Kurowski suggests that all of this was the work of Model: " Without consulting von Kluge, Model called a halt to all attack operations."

__________________

Hitler should have waited until 1944 at least. An unsuccessful offensive at that stage of the war would, and did, result in the total collapse of the entire front. The very decision to go on an offensive in 1943, regardless of its result, was extremely risky and unprofessional. Germany would have been better off with mobile defense after the catastrophic defeat at Stalingrad.

Yes, but Hitler did not feel himself comfortable being defensive. Which , of course, he should have realized