On those panthers...This as well as the previous text are from the same source, that I had put here om 18.8.

Gen. Knobelsdorf, the corps commander of XLVIII Panzer Corps, had attached all 200 of the new Panther tanks to the Panzergrenadier Division Grossdeutschland. As the corps war diary makes clear, he expected that this mass of armor would quickly break through the Soviet defenses and capture the ground to the north. Instead, the result was a case study in the ability of a dense minefield, properly covered by fire, to completely stop a major attack and force a change in plans. Soon after jumping off, the Panthers encountered a minefield and had to call for engineers to clear lanes. Soviet artillery and anti-tank fire concentrated on the stranded Panthers and the engineers working to extricate them. Some 40 Panthers were knocked out by mines or by hostile fire. Meanwhile the infantry, who had been waiting for support by the Panthers, attacked the Soviet positions without tank support and were thrown back with heavy casualties. Consequently, the attack was abandoned, and those Panthers which could be extricated were shifted to support the main body of the division to the east. This change in plans caused a delay of several hours. As a result of these and other delays, the corps advance was slowed considerably. Although the corps did succeed in breaking through the First Soviet Defense Belt on July 5, it advanced only 5-6 km instead of the planned 15-20 km and was not in a position to assault the Second Belt the next day as planned.

Doesn´t this mean that as only 40 panthers were left after those that didn´t work, there are none left now? Yet I´d like to know more what happened to them. The search continues...

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Friedrich, AchtungPanzer is one of the sources we have; but the author of that site undoubtedly got the 90 Ferdinands from Healy et all. New sources, and even some older ones, cast doubt on this number. The newest source I have, Glantz, claims that 105 Ferdinands fought in the battle. My guess is probably right aound 90 Ferdinands served, but we can't be sure...

Nice stuff, Kai. Interesting- I've also read about a explosive vehicle used by the germans- the "Goliath". I wonder though- sounds like a different vehicle, but I don't know if they had two varieties... I saw one of these Goliaths at Aberdeen- looks like an armored beetle! The Goliath I saw would not have been driven at all- too small. It was controlled entirely by remote control. I've also read about their use with Ferdinands in clearing minefields at Kursk. I have read mixed reviews of their value- apparently the goliaths were vulnerable to small arms fire and explosions. This made it difficult, especially at a battle like Kursk, to actually use the Goliaths. I wonder about that number you found- 12 goliaths used to clear one area of minefileds. Did you find anything as far as a total for the number of Goliaths used? Were they just attached to the Ferdinands, or were the Goliaths part of a seperate company? Hmmmm...

Argh! According to your source, the 653rd fielded 49 Ferdinands- another new number! If each company fileded 49, that would make the total 98! Did your source mention anything about the 654th company?
If this is the case, now we are looking at either 90, 91, 96, 98, or 105 Ferdinands!

The initial deployment of the Panther was a total mess. I'm actually working, like the Ponyri struggle, on info from the struggle for Cherkaskoye (sp?), another town in the Kursk salient. Cherkaskoye was the location of the initial Panther deployment you noted. From what I've read so far, the Panthers were so badly thrown off by the minefield that they weren't able to make any significant contribution to taking Cherkaskoye. It took nearly the whole day to extricate the surviving Panthers and re-deploy them for the attack.
Geez- talk about a great machine having a BAD debut! I can't think of a way it could have gone worse!

From the info we have so far, I'm beginning to think that the most effective anti-tank tactic at Kursk was the most simple and easy- land mines. We have seen so much about german tanks being taken out by mines, I wonder if any of the other methods used at Kursk (infantry tactics, AFV, Pakfronts, etc.) even came close to the success rate of the minefileds...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

hello CrazyD88! I found this in achtungpanzer, was there always but only now was I interested...

here´s the important part with Ferdinands extracted:

Panzer Kompanie (Funklenk) 312 was subordinated to s.Pz.Abt 505 with 31 Tiger Is and 15 PzKpfw. IIIs during the Battle at Kursk. The only detailed combat report of Borgward IV in action at Kursk comes from Pz.Kp (Fkl) 312. "One B IV was sent out 800m towards a PaK-nest with 2-3 PaKs and detonated, destroying the guns and the accompanying infantry. Another B IV was sent 400m against a T-34/76 which was destroyed as it rammed the B IV. Three B IV were sent 400-600m towards three concrete bunkers, destroying all of them. Two B IV was sent 800m towards a PaK-nest and an infantry gun-nest, destroying both of them. Another B IV reached a Soviet position and was set on fire by a Molotov Cocktail and it exploded along with the enemy position."

Panzer Kompanie (Funklenk) 313 belonged to 2. Abteilung / s.Pz.Jäg.Rgt. 656 subordinated to s.Pz.Jäg.Abt 654 equipped with 44 Ferdinand heavy self-propelled guns. Their roll was to blow a whole through the enemy minefields enabling further advance of the Ferdinands. Before one had reached the enemy minefields, 4 Borgward IV were lost to own mines, while another 4 makes it through and are sacrificed in favor of the Ferdinands which then were able to pass through the minefield. Later on three Borgward IV destroys two AT-gun nests and single bunker. Later in action with s.Pz.Abt 508.

Panzer Kompanie (Funklenk) 314 belonged to 1. Abteilung / s.Pz.Jä.Rgt. 656 subordinated to s.Pz.Jäg.Abt 653 with 45 Ferdinand heavy self-propelled guns. It used 12 Borgward IV to blow a hole through a deep enemy minefield. StuGs which were used as control vehicles rolled through, but the engineers could not mark the passage as heavy artillery fire pinned them down. Eventually some Ferdinand crew lost track of the passage and a number of vehicles were disabled, considerably delaying the attack. Later that day, two Borgward IV were sent to a woodline hold by the enemy. After detonation there was no enemy resistance existing. Companies under Panzer Abteilung (Funklenk) 301 lost 20 Borgward IV in four days. Only 4 Borgward IV didn't reach their designated targets, either after being hit by enemy AT- or artillery-fire. Two of them were burnt out, while the other two were recovered. In general, the unit was very pleased with their performance, although the radio-control equipment was effective up to 800-1.000m instead of the desired 2.000m.

And here´s the site:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/borgward.htm

Not much on russian WW2 mines in the net so far...

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here´s the B IV:

http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/...r/index_en.htm

and Goliath

http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/...h/index_en.htm

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here´s the background to the Ferdinand story. Porsche made 90 chassis´ so I believe this to be the correct number, so far.

Porsche had much influence in the German industry and the Henschel prototype was finished just three days before it was to be demonstrated to Hitler on 20th April 1942. In fact the Henschel tank had not been even driven under its own power! The prototypes had to be driven 11km to the test site from railroad. When unloaded from trains, the Porsche prototype already sank into the soft ground under its great weight. Both of the vehicles broke down several times during the drive.

When tested the Porsche proved to be faster, but it was a lot poorer to maneuver. The Henschels version almost catched fire during the test drive, but it was not noticed. It was probably the most maneuverable tank at the time, and it was simpler to manufacture. So Henschel won the contract. Porsche was also ordered in case of delays with the Henschel model. Porsche made 90 chassis which were later converted to the Ferdinand/Elephant tank destroyers.

http://www.hut.fi/~tlindgre/konig/history/data.htm

On achtung panzer they said there were also six PZ III`s functioning as ammunition carriers if I understood it right. Could these be counted wrong, as Porsche didn´t get the deal so they didn´t make more of these tanks. And tanks in repair might as well be counted " again"?? SOme thoughts flying...

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That B IV was originally built on the chassis of Pz I, later on changes being made so that it could do its job better. The Goliath was its little brother. The B IV had place for one man, who would drive it to the edge of the mine field, after which he would go away and the B IV would be driven by radio control a bit deeper into the mine field ( the weight not blowing the mines 4.5 tons vs 57 tons of Tiger ) and also made to explode by radio control. I read that they used StuG III as the place to watch the B IV move into the mine field, but later on Tiger I was required as the russians kept shooting hard ( maybe some StuG´s were lost and they couldn´t send the radio messages to explode the B IV ). OK, but after this a new B IV was driven to further expand the mine free track, and usually it took three B IV´s to make a track for heavier tanks. the story of 12 B IV´s was telling of one single very large mine field!!!! Quite interesting stuff.

Indeed, the mines were deadly, and it seems that the russian mines were involved strongly in either destruction or immobilization of the german tanks ( panthers, ferdinands, own mines in tiger immobilization ) as well as loads of pioneers were killed as they were clearing the fields.
That flamethrower mine was kinda wicked thing...

There´s plenty of stuff to go through, and it feels like leading the northern pincer (!). I saw a book covering the Ferdinands in Kursk on Amazon. com, might have to think about getting it one day.

But now there´s a new problem. Brumbaers?? What the heck...never saw that one coming until now.

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I wish I had more time at the moment...
Good stuff on the remote-control vehicle, Kai. So there were two... Were both used at Kursk?

I'd generally tend to agree on the 90 Ferdinands. That's the number I've seen most often. The main book I have on the, Rarities of the Tiger Family, goes through the same story you mention about the early testing and developement, and also cite 90 as the number, I think. It does make me wonder though that Glantz cites such a higher number. I've been (in the little time I've had this week) trying to put together something of a comprehensive day-byday report on the Ferdinands... how many deployed, where, how many lost.
And yes, the Ferdinand battalions used PzIII munition carriers for ammo supply. Good idea- maybe in some estimates these PzIIIs are counted in the wrong group....
Flamethrower mine? Never heard of that one! But I may try and put together something on the success rates of the different anti-tank tactics... seems liek mines were the best, but I'd be inetersted to see some comparison...

HISTORY OF THE 653 HEAVY TANK HUNTER BATTALION,*
Karl Heinz, C, O
Was that the book you saw? I've been thinking about that one, but I think it's 60$. Adn I just bought a PS2, so...

Brummbaers were similar to the Ferdinands- an ad-hoc gun carrier. Brummbaers were meant for infantry support though- they mounted the 15cm SiG33 howitzer in a fully enclosed, armored vehicle. I can get more info on these tonight. I think 45 or so served at Kursk in one heavy assault gun battalion.

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Well, I think that 15 Ferdinands are quite a big difference... I rather go with the 90.

Beside I think they were very bad employed at Kursk. Making Panzer units equipped with only Ferdinands is pretty dumb... Wouldn't be better more balanced units with the same amount of fast tanks (Pz III and IV), tank destroyers, self propelled guns and heavy tanks? I think that 40 Ferdinands together are a slow and awkward formation, not very mobile...

There was a Pantherbrigade within Panzerdivision "Großdeutschland" and also another Pantherbrigade with 2. SS Panzerdivision "Das Reich". I read it in a site which I shall not name now... Damned my memory... Was it true?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Friedrich:

There were no Panthers with Das Reich or any of the three W-SS divisions at Kursk. 2nd SS received their Ausf D's after Kursk in Auygust of 43 and used them to good effect in the defence of the Mius. Slaughtered over 40 T-34's in their first engagement.

logging off now......good thread guys !

E

CrazyD88

Yes both Goliath and B IV were used during the first two days of attack. The latter for the minefields, bunkers and even one T34 as you noticed probably. The results were satisfactory. With Goliath the results were poor, as it was smaller and easy to destroy by russians. Greatname, not much success.

The russians had also pioneer groups that put new mines in the attack areas during the night, some 35 000 during the german attack phase. So after the first two days germans didn´t use those B IV systems as the new mine fields were usually found as a tank hit them. The german pioneers had to clear the fields by hand, as the area of Kursk is mentioned to be magnetic.Big men losses as russians hit them hard with artillery all the time.
Anyway, the mines slowed the attack enough so that new fresh russian troops poured in and stopped the attacks.
In some cases even the russians didn´t know about the mines set during the night and lost several T34´s in their attacks. Don´t have any values on this.

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More information on ferdinands Panzerworld )
This is from the first attack in the northern pincer

It was assigned to the first wave of the assault with the radio-controlled demolition tanks (B IV) of Pz. Kp. (Fkl.) 314 to clear a path for the Ferdinands through the extensive Soviet minefields. This was only partly successful since the engineers that were to assist in clearing the minefields were unable to do much due to the extremely heavy Soviet artillery fire. This caused a number of Ferdinands to be immobilized by mines destroying roadwheels and sections of track. Some of these had to be destroyed by their own crews when they couldn't be recovered in a timely fashion by the Germans. The Soviets stopped the Germans after an advance of only a few miles and the Germans were forced to go to the defensive. The serviceable Ferdinands were broken up into small groups to act as long-range tank destroyers when the Soviets launched a counter-offensive intended to destroy the Orel Salient on 11 July. The 653rd was withdrawn from combat on 27 July, but their great weight caused many delays in actually transporting them to the rear as the bridges along their route to Briansk had to be reinforced to bear their weight.

During their time at Kursk only 13 Ferdinands were totally destroyed between 5 and 27 July although a number of others were knocked-out and repaired during the period. A report of a Porsche technical representative attached to the Abteilung on 26 July only lists three armor penetrations, one in the hull side and two in the superstructure, although a number of vehicles were set on fire by shrapnel through the engine deck grates. Most of the problems not caused by enemy action were related to the powertrain namely the engine and electrical systems, rather than the chassis. In exchange for all this frustration the 653rd claimed 320 tanks and numerous trucks and guns. In fact one crew claimed 22 tanks on 14 July, but even such heroics weren't enough to save the Germans from the Soviet onslaught.

Their sister battalion suffered more severely and turned over its 19 surviving Ferdinands during August before the 653rd was ordered to Dnepropetrovsk to refit on 25 August. At this time it had a strength of 50 Ferdinands, but all needed repairs to a greater or lesser degree. The successful Soviet counter-offensive after Kursk forced the 653. to withdraw to Nikopol on the other side of the Dnepr as Dnepropetrovsk was threatened by mid-September. On 19 September it was ordered to move all serviceable vehicles to the Zaporozhye Bridgehead on the eastern side of the Dnepr to defend the power dam there. No more than 14 vehicles at one time were able to help the defense in the bridgehead before the dam was destroyed on 15 October.

After the retreat across the Dnepr the serviceable Ferdinands were distributed in penny packets among the units defending the Nikopol-Krivoi Rog area. As of 5 November it claimed the destruction of:

582 tanks
344 anti-tank guns
133 artillery pieces
103 anti-tank rifles
3 aircraft
3 armored cars
3 assault guns

As of the 26th its claims had increased to 654 tanks and 610 guns (likely combining AT guns and artillery pieces). Three days later its maintenance status was only 4 combat-ready, 8 in short-term maintenance, 30 in long-term maintenance and 4 total losses. Its low serviceability rate and the very poor mobility of the Ferdinands in wet ground caused it to be transferred to Austria for a factory-level refit beginning in mid-December. The actual transfer was quite prolonged as the serviceable vehicles not yet rail-loaded were often called upon to support the hard-pressed German defenders. The last trainload didn't depart until 10 January.

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Some info from Achtung Panzer...

First unit to be equipped with Brummbars began forming in April of 1943. This unit was to receive 50 out of 60 vehicles already produced, while the rest was to be put in reserve. Newly formed unit - Sturmpanzerabteilung 216 was moved to Amiens area in France for training. The unit began moving to the Eastern Front on June 10th of 1943. Sturmpanzer IV Brummbaers had their debut with Sturmpanzerabteilung 216 (part of 656 sPanzerjaeger Regiment commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Jungenfeld) as part of Army Group Mitte (Center) at Kursk (Summer of 1943). Sturmpanzerabteilung 216 took part in the first combat action on July 5th, but its elements continued arriving into battle as late as July 18th. Jungenfeld was awarded the Knight's Cross after Kursk and was promoted to full Colonel after battle of Charkov. After Kursk, unit was refitted and was back in action in September of 1943. Sturmpanzerabteilung 216 saw combat in Russia until mid December of 1943, when it was moved back to Germany for refitting. In February of 1944, unit was moved to Italy, to the area of Anzio and Nettuno. Sturmpanzerabteilung 216 remained in combat in Italy until April of 1945, when last Brummbars were destroyed by their crews at the area of Lake Garda.

Specifications
Weight: 28200kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM / 12-cylinder / 300hp (early)
Maybach HL 120 TRM 112 / 12-cylinder / 300hp (late)
Speed: Road: 40km/h
Cross-Country: 24km/h
Range: Road: 210km
Cross-Country: 130km
Fuel Capacity: 470 litres
Lenght: 5.93m
Width: 2.88m w/o Schurzen
3.29m with Schurzen
Height: 2.52m
Armament: 150mm StuH 43 L/12 & 7.92mm MG34 (early)
150mm StuH 43/1 L/12 & 2x 7.92mm MG34 (late)
Ammo: 150mm - 38 rounds
7.92mm - 600 rounds
Armor (mm/angle): Front Superstructure: 100/40
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Superstructure: 50/15
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Superstructure: 30/25+0
Rear Hull: 20/10
Top/Bottom Superstructure: 20/83 + 10/90
Top/Bottom Hull: 10/90


"We always were considered a 'fire brigade' unit, and always were used when the infantry was in trouble and lots of artillery had to be brought down at the enemy and fast. More than one infantry regiment blessed us after we had smashed a heavy attack of the enemy...Funny thing, though. As happy as the commanders of the supported units were when we smashed an enemy attack, the 'Landsers', the line infantry, were glad when we left, because enemy artillery fire was pounding them to hell while we were there. They could not change the locations of their fox holes, but we could move back and forth and sideways to escape enemy artillery at least to some extent" - Joseph Scharrer, 3rd Company of Sturmpanzerabteilung 216, from May of 1943 to October of 1944.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

www.battlefield.ru has a pic of a brummbar knocked out at kursk.

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

"Most of the 60 initial Brummbars were lost during the vicious fighting for the Kursk salient and later during the battles for Karkov."

Does anyone know exactly how many were lost???

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Glad to see you back Erich!!

Also, I will be posting an Orbat of German forces--large nad small--who were at Kursk, And I will be hoping for any additions I have left out--if you have them. I know my Orbat isnt as complete as I want it.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Carl......it will be a couple of days before I'm a regular visitor, but heading north tommorrow.
Will check the OOB, the W-SS book I ordered on Kursk is back ordered as that has always been my main interest in Kursk.....just how many victories and losses from the 3 units.

E

Well, Friedrich, they weren't panzer battalions- they were tank destroyer battalions. I think the question is, why weren't they deployed WITH the panzer battalions. Usually, assault gun or tank destroyer battalions would be deployed for infantry support, but at Kursk there were also plenty of tanks available as well. I think Model seperated them too much... he tried repeatedly to use all his armor against some of the stronger, more fortified locations, like Ponyri, while deploying the infatry and support battalions too thinly along the rest of his line. I would think it would work better to deploy the infantry and support against strongpoints, and try and get the tanks into open country and use their range more...

Kai, good stuff on the Ferdinands... those kill numbers seem rather high, but the russians did take extremely heavy losses...
Regardless of natural magnetism, imagine the amount of metal littering the battlefield within an hour of the battle's start!

RedBaron, Healy claims 66 of the Brummbars were finished for Kursk. They served in the 216th heavy assault gun battalion with Model's forces on the northern pincer. Unfortunately, while Healy makes repeated mention of the Elephants, he dosen't give any action history for the Brummbars... I don't have time at the moment (I really need hispeed at home!), but Achtungpanzer may give some. I'm still checking as well...

Carl, I have at least a couple OOBs (any other acronyms, anyone )...not sure how detailed or complete they are though- they could be somewhat cursory. I'll check them out.

Hey Erich... nice too see you back!
I don't have any specifics at the moment, but all my sources agree on the outstanding performance of the WSS units at Kursk. They definetely earned part of their comabt reputation in that operation. But likewise, I'd also be interested in more info on the specifics. I'll review what Healy has to say, but it won't have too much depth... (although I would have to go with him for my best source for general info on Kursk)

[ 22 August 2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I´ve just been reading a book by a finnish colonel on the russian war machine, tanks especially. He also goes through some statistics no the partisan war. I can´t help but think that as well as the russian war tactics the partisans were very effective. At least by these numbers:

In 6/1943 all along the front 1114 attacks

8/43 1395 attacks

9/43 1256 attacks

during these 343 trains off the rails

This point is important considering our main subject here:

In july 1943 between Smolensk-Brjansk-Minsk 841 attacks, 298 steam engines destroyed, 1222 train wagons destroyed, 44 bridges blown up. Also one train carrying tiger tanks was destroyed (!), but no number of tanks shown.

SO, one more thing to have an effect on Kursk and the later counter attacks.I do think they made quite an impact on the course of the war...

Anybody having more details?

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