Well said about the Elephants. There were quite nice weapons! And most of them were lost because of the mines and mechanical trouble. That's true.

I am amazed of how much interesting info you have all provided.

And Kai, nice sites and pics!

By the way, I can translate those sites in Spanish if anybody would like to!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Though I don´t understand Spanish, by the first look it doesn´t seem like there would be new and interesting stuff there. But if I am wrong then I´d be interested to find more on those Panthers from Zitadelle ( losses, movements ) and also the Tigers there as well.Of course the Ferdinands should not be forgotten.
If you find the time and things mentioned above then it´d be great if you could translate it for us, Friedrich! [img]smile.gif[/img]

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The Sunday morning...getting up´s the problem!

Anyway, I just wanted to warn you guys that I am close to my Panther books ( I always had them but as I am now checking them by our summer cottage I can refer to them ) and I´ll be back tomorrow about them in Kursk with German and Russian views. The remaining 40-60 tanks seems like a problem still as to what they were doing and how they coped. I am excited anyway...stay in touch tomorrow!

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(Finally- moving weekend is all done. New apartments are great, but let me tell you how much stuff my wonderful woman has! Not too much time to post today either...)

But back to the subject at hand... Kai, the amount of info you have turned up on the Ferdinands/Elephants is incredible- keep it coming!
A better picture of Panther actions would be interesting... Erich came up with some good day-by-day numbers and info for the Tigers in DasReich. I'll see if any of my sources have similar info on the panthers (I thought someone posted said info already on this thread- excuse me if I missed it!). We know that many were knocked out on the first day, but there's a few days where I haven't seen much info on Panther actions.

more on the LG40/43... I found more technical info on these weapons in "Men Against Tanks (John Weeks), talking about the firing system and proiduction info. I'll post more detail later today under a "Weapons" thread... But I did find an explanation for their being in action at Kursk- no more airborne ops. The LG weapons, as Erich mentioned, were designed for the Falshirmjager- lightweight, easily assembled, etc. Problem was, by 1943, Hitler had essentially killed any future large scale airborne ops after the casualties taken at Crete. Therefore, the weapons were parcelled out to other random units.

Hopefully, now that moving is doen and work is calming down, I'll have more posting time this week...

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Well, we're expecting both of you. You are the most active members in this thread! Don't let us down!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Some reviews on those books released on Kursk. Some comparisons on the tank losses as well.
http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/001002.shtml

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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I hate Panthers...well not really. Just another finding to make things look weirder. I thought that it was clear that panthers were only in Abt 51/52 96+96 pieces each. Ok, so I was wrong. It seems that there were exactly 8 pieces in the southern pincer with Stab/panzer reg 39.Yes, this might solve the puzzle why there´s talk of Panthers on both sides (?).

Truppenteil Monat Panzeranzahl
Panzerabtlg. 51 Juli ,96 pieces
Panzerablg. 52 Juli ,96 pieces
Stab/Panzerrgt. 39 Juli ,8 pieces

This one´s from a German site. As well it is on Achtung Panzer site for Panthers loud and clear.

I managed to find pics of these beautiful animals as they were back then so enjoy these pics:

http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/artykuly/...Panther_01.jpg

http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/artykuly/...Panther_02.jpg

And a great site for statistics for Kursk:

http://www.angelfire.com/wi2/foto/ww2/proh/page4.html

On the book mentioned on Speer page I found out that "the Panther´s engine fire was resulted by the water tight sealing of the engine compartment to prepare the tank for amphibious wading.This caused insufficient levels of engine cooling and ventilation."
This was not the only problem as we know but it is unfortunate to have a similar problem with all the tanks, not just the " Monday series" problem.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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Ha?! I get to correct myself!
I seem to have misread that one, as I totally had forgotten that Grossdeutschland was under AGS. OK, back to normal life. The Panthers were up north like they used to...

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Wait a sec... the Panthers were part of the southern pincer, weren't they? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I'm pretty sure the Panthers were deployed in two groups of 96 like you cite. I think what happened here- originally 200 were delivered to AGS for the Kursk offensive. Probably 8 (likely even more) broke down before even reaching the front. This would account for 96 in each group as opposed to 100.
The northern pincer of the attack, AGC, had all the specialized armor- the Ferdinands, the Brummbaers, etc....

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Haa...sorry about that one. I started mixing Panthers with Ferdinands somehow. Don´t know where Panthers started their own separate journey in my head during this autumn...And the story on those 8 Panthers was that I was looking for signs for these tanks elsewhere than abt 51 and 52, as there are stories of them in Prokhorovka with LAH ( or 2nd SS panzer corps as a whole )but that seems to be before 1997. The number of 40 tanks operational for the beginning of Zitadelle looks like the correct number.

After Kursk Abt 51 stayed with Grossdeutschland, and Abt 52 with 11th panzer div by the " Panther tank" book.

That was a bit of a mess so thanx CrazyD!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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On those Panthers in "The Panther tank" by Dr Matther Hughes and Dr Chriss Mann:

" The Panther was simply nit ready for action at Kursk.The roads and tracks between the railheads and the assembly areas for Kursk were soon littered with Panthers which had broken down with transmission failures and engine fires.

In the end, the Germans deployed just two Panther-equipped tank battalions to participate in Kursk, and these fought on the southern front in a separate "battle Group Kempf". In addition the Germans reinforced some of their panzer divisions with a third tank battalion with the formidable Tiger tank.The other two battalions used a variety of tanks. Most panzer divisions had battalions equipped with the Panzer III and IV. However, one or two divisions, such as the 11th Panzer, besides a battalion of Tigers, also had a battalion of Pz IV´s and one of Panthers. Thus Panthers fought in penny packets in units other than the "Kempf" battle group.

In all, some 250 Panthers AusfD tanks participated in operaiton Citadel, mostly in 51st and 52nd Panzer battalions which were combined into the improvised "Kempf" Panther Brigade.At Kursk, the Panther AusfD made an inauspicious operational debut on July 5th, as these tanks suffered severe reliability problems.Many had even problems even reaching the front line.
This combiantion of mechanical and tactical problems resulted in the 51st Panzer Battalion suffering a disastrous 56 per cent loss rate on its first day of action.By the second day of the Kursk offensive, just one fifth of the Panthers committed remained operational, a tremendous drop-out rate testifying to the ill-judged speed with which the tanks were thrown into combat.

Gefreiter Werner Kriegel in a Panther of the 51st Panzer Battalion recalled the bitter fighting at Kursk:
"Our first attack stuck in a minefield. I lost a track.While our artillery suppressed the Soviets, we could recover both disabled tanks..
The first day ended in disaster.By the evening of the 5th, Pz Battalion 51 had only 22 Panthers operational. Some 28 tanks or so were totally destroyed, the rest damaged. My comrades complained of weak final drives and of their engines overheating...On the 8th July we again headed for Obojan south of Kursk.Our Panther received a hit from a tank gun on the commander´s cupola. We carried on the attack with an open hatch and a cracked cupola. My commander still has the shell...We lost one tank to one of those heavy assault guns ( SU-152 ), the mantlet was simply penetrated.We also met American tanks, which were no match for us..We destroyed a number of T-34´s at ranges well over 2500 metres."

Kriegel´s Panthers fought on the southern edge of the Kursk salient as a separate detachment to Hoth´s FourthPanzer Army which spearheaded the main attack.

In defence, the Soviets established what the Germans called "Pakfronts". These were a complex pattern of strongpoints, based upon groups of tanks, anti-tank guns protected by deep minefields, and sited to a depth of cover ( 19.3 km). These Pakfronts called for new tactics by the Germans as the Russian system meant that in battle, up to 10 guns would open up on the German lead tank.

The Panthers at Kursk and after were built into fromations known as Panzerkeil.This evolded into Panzerglockeby 1944. This was abell-shaped attacking fromation with armoured engineers following up the lead Panthers and Tigers. As before, lighter tanks covered the flanks.With the Panzerglocke there would be a command group, including the Panther variant command tank, to control the armoured formation and supporting air strikes from Luftwaffe bombers and Ju 87 dive bombers.These new tactics depended upon certain criteria: adequate reconnaissance, good groud-to-air communication, high levels of tank gunnery, maintanance of momentum, correct positioning of Forward Observers, sufficient reserves of fuel and ammunition close to the attacking tip, and the correct use of white and coloured tank smoke for screening and marking of the battlefield.

The German Major-General F.W. von Mellenthin left an interesting record of the Panther´s performance at Kursk in his book "Panzer Battles"." During Citadel armour moved and fought in wedge formation, the Panzerkeil, which up to then had proved very effective indeed.The spearhead of the wedge was formes by the heaviest tanks, and the Tigers proved their worth against the Pakfronts organised in depth. The Tiger´s 88 mm gun was superior to anything the Russian´s had, but as I have mentioned, the Panthers were still in their infancy and were a failure."

[img]smile.gif[/img]

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Something new and something exciting:

Very late in the evening of 7 July, the commander of Soviet 2nd Guards Tank Corps was ordered to assemble an armoured force with infantry support and strike westwards, from its position in the woods, around the village of Gostischevo.Its task was to assault the deep flank of the SS Panzer Corps, with a view to cutting off its supply route. Quite by chance, as this completely unsuspected Soviet unit was emerging from woodland and deploying for attack with infantry support, it was spotted by Hauptmann Meyer who was leading a flight of Henschel He 129´s in a routine reconnaissance of the area. the Henschels devastated the T-34´s with their 30 mm cannon. FW 190´s of battle formation "Druschel" flew in support, dropping anti-personnel bombs on the infantry. Within an hour fifty shattered T-34´s littered the battlefield. It was the first time in the history of warfare that a tank formation had been destroyed solely from the air.

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As for the new vehicles I think they had an impact- and all didn't have a negative one. Panzerbrigade Decker lost a huge amount of Panthers during the first day, many due to mechanical problems and minefields.

The Elefant was also a disaster, no machingun made this tank destroyer very vulnerable. In desperation some crews fired the machingun through the main gun. Many Elefants were lost due to seperation from supporting infantry and no machinegun to defend themselves.

The Tiger handled the situation better, the once who met russian tanks performed pretty well. Their armour could take russian at- fire and it was generally a good machine.

The Wespes performance during the battle is not so well known as the other vehicles. I've heard no complaints about it.

The Hummel also performed well at Kursk. About 100 Hummels were saw action.

The Nashorns who saw action with two independent panzerjäger abteilungs performed well at Kursk. The Nashorn could take out a T- 34 at 4000 meters.

The Brummbär also saw action first at Kursk. Altough the abteilung arrived divided and the abteilung wasn't complete until late into the battle. The commander recieved the knight's cross.

These are all that I can come up with, anyone who got additions or comments?

regards

Nice stuff (and welcome!), charlie... (nice nickname too!!!)

I think the Panthers were the only "new" vehicles that had real trouble at Kursk. If you skimmed the earlier comments on this thread, you probably noticed the Panthers coming up. I still love one of my sources- mentions that at Kursk the Panthers were "plagued by MINOR TEETHING PROBLEMS"!!! If bursting into flames is a "minor" problem, I'd hate to see a major one!
With the Elephants, I think the main problem was not the vehicles themselves, but their use. The lack of a machinegun was definetely a disadvantage, no doubt. But if the Elephants had been used as they were intended, as long-range tank killers, I think they would have seen more success. But at Kursk, the Elephants were used in a role more suited to the Brummbars- as assualt artillery. Elephants were used in attempts to break through the russian defensive lines- but once they succeeded, like you mention, they were left without any support infantry and became easy targets. If they had been used at long range- the 88mmL71 was probably the best anti-tank gun at the time, so I would imagine much better results.

I honestly haven't read too much about any of the artillery use at Kursk. But you bring up a good point- there was a rather large quantity of motorised artillery available to the germans at Kursk. I have, however, read that throughout the battle the russians enjoyed pretty clear artillery superiority. So I wonder- were the germans simply outnumbered and outgunned where artillery was concerned, or did the germans not use their motorised artillery as well as they could have?
Hmmm....

By the way, Kai, I've read about that account before. (I think someone mentioned it somewhere here in the forums, maybe even on this thread?). Talk about being in the right place at the right time (or wrong place, wrong time, fron the russian side!)...
Some of these smaller battles are what make Kursk so interesting!

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

I think that the elefant never should have been used in offensive actions or that they should have equipped them with machineguns so that they would have been versatile. The were certainly not made for blitzkrieg.

By the way, in upper secondary school I made a forty page work about Kursk and I got the highest grade for that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

regards

[ 16 October 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: charlie don't surf ]

What do you know? The Russians had other attack plans as well. I thought that Kursk was already theirs but maybe I was wrong...

"On August 3, 1943, the Soviets attacked Kursk and overtook the city in a quick fashion."

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212881/redarm.html

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The cover of Rudel´s book:



http://hem.passagen.se/fieldmarshal/tiger2.jpg





[ 19. November 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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Check the Tiger pic ( the net site address ) under Rudel´s book cover...somehow it would not show up...Protected I guess?
That´s a great pic of Tiger!

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Rudel's book and what cover ? Is this a new European publication Kai ? The pics that are on your post have been in several other W-SS books, including Nipe's book on Kursk and the Mius River and Tigers in Combat II bei Schneider.

E

I think these pictures are from Kursk.





from

regards