As far as "Russians" being happy to see the Germans.....

I have a family member who was Ukrainian, who said they were happy to see the Germans casue they hated the Soviets so badly, but then the Germans treated just as badly as the russians had. I guess that's what your talkin' bout, eh?

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Living History at http://oldreliable9_47.tripod.com

Oh, hell, someone already said that. I'm a dumbass. I need more sleep.

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Living History at http://oldreliable9_47.tripod.com

Not to worry, Doc!

Even more, you have a first-hand source in your family member. A very good one here- the best way to get at the right idea in my opinion is to combine boks and research sources with first-hand testimony such as that of your family member.

As usual, Kai, great finds. That is also the idea I get- Stalin had been so cruel in many areas that the russians were at least willing to give the germans a chance. But the the Einsatzgruppen rolled through and dispelled any sympathetic feelings.

[ 22 October 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ]

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Seriously, all today is missing is free cotton candy and the annual Bay State Hooker Parade to make it any better.

Agree that many Ukrainian (not the majority, but a considerable part, espec. Western-Ukrainians was pro-German (at the beginning). But White Russia? Never heard about that aside some very few pro-german anectodes.

Treating the local population as "equals" would have meant FEEDING them and giving them the prospective of having some sort of independence. Without slave labour the german war machine would have collapsed back in late 1943 / early 1944. Not looting the russian country would have meant lover rations for the average "Volksgenosse" in 1942.

The German plans called to kill some 20 million people in Russia (starving) in order to feed Germany on pre-war level, plus the entire Wehrmacht.

Cheers,

[ 22 October 2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Indeed, the German policy was to kill not to feed the Russian inferior people.

The Belarus( = White Russia ) people were no different though I cannot see why Belarus alone would make a difference if they had not celebrated the German entry?


"Yet when they invaded in 1941, the Nazis received a warm welcome from many Belarusians who greeted them as liberators from Stalinist rule. Some Catholic Priests even held a thanksgiving mass when the Germans invaded. Consequently, the Nazis had little trouble recruiting local police forces. To find collaborationists among native population Germans allowed the supporters of Belarusian national movement to use the national symbolics, open Belarusian schools, scientific, cultural and educational institutions, publish newspapers and magazines."

http://www.brestonline.com/History/bh6.shtml

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In June 1941, when German tanks swept through Belorussia toward Moscow, many Belorussians actually welcomed the Nazis, thinking that they would free the Belorussian people from their communist oppression

http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/bela...ld_war_ii.html

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When I returned from the funeral, I saw many of the Volozhyn Jews crowded together. They argued in loud voices. They formed two camps: one was pro-Soviet and the other pro-German. Workers and artisans were sure that the Soviets would overcome the Germans swiftly. Merchants and dealers, to the contrary, were convinced that the Germans would win. They refused to listen to any of the refugees' tales about the German atrocities and their blood curdling deeds against Jews. They considered the accounts of horrors as Soviet propaganda. Many Volozhyn inhabitants witnessed the German 1918 invasion. They assumed that the 1941 Germans would not be in any great measure different from those in 1918. During the occupation of the First World War they did not hurt any Jews. So they said, “It is not reasonable that this cultivated and organized nation could change during one generation. Why would they hurt us now? The people working for the Bolsheviks, and in love with them, they should be afraid now, but not the common Jews." Such were the conversations during those critical days. Few were the Volozhyn inhabitants who chose to escape with the Soviets.

http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/volozhin/vol527.html

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Within a week Minsk fell to Germans forces that were greeted with bread and salt by the residents whose ancestors had welcomed conquerors many times before.

http://ajzenberg.com/Book/83.htm

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Here´s some data I found on exact actions by einsatzkommandos:

2.7.2 For almost all Einsatz or Special Commandos and for a number of Battalions, the mass shooting of Jewish men of draft age - hundreds or thousands of people for each unit - can be documented for the period as early as the end of June or in July. These shootings were mostly carried out under the pretext of "retribution", punishment for "plundering" or else portrayed as a struggle against "partisans"..

This behaviour corresponded to commands which the Einsatzgruppen had received at the beginning of the campaign. In some cases, as we have seen, the leaders of the units even made reference to having received orders to this effect.

2.7.3 The behaviour of the units followed a standardised pattern which however was not altogether uniform: the age limit of those to be shot varied from one unit to another; while in some places the entire male population in the designated age group was shot, the executions in other places included different percentages of the male population. Clearly the leaders of the units also had a certain amount of leeway as concerns the nature of the orders given to them; as we have seen, these were not always very precise and left a certain amount of room for interpretation.

2.7.4 This sort of "indirect" command, based upon the intuition and initiative of the subordinates, is characteristic for the Nazi system. It was employed especially when subordinates were being asked to do something which clearly violated the accepted law. The Highest Party Court of the Nazi Party had appropriately characterised this sort of "indirect" command in 1939, when it was asked to deal with the question of whether Party members were to be punished for capital crimes committed in the course of the November pogrom of 1938. The Highest Party Court concluded at that time that "for active Nazis from the early period of struggle it was self-evident... that in actions where the Party does not want to openly appear as the organiser, orders are not issued with absolute clarity or in the smallest detail. He [the active Nazi, P.L.] is therefore accustomed to interpret more than is literally stated, just as those who give the orders often are accustomed - in the interest of the Party - not to state everything but to hint at what is to be achieved by the command. This is especially the case when it is a question of illegal political demonstrations."

2.7.5 This technique of command-giving was also employed in 1941 in connection with the mass murder of Soviet Jews. The leaders of the individual units were granted a certain latitude, only however within the context of a framework determined by the SS leadership.

2.7.6 In order to assure that the basic policy intentions of the SS leadership were actually put into practice by the units, Himmler, Heydrich and Daluege undertook extended inspection tours in the occupied Eastern territories in the first few weeks of the war. In this way, they encouraged the units to continuously increase the number of Jewish men to be shot. The inspection trips thus constituted an important instrument for reinforcing the system of "indirect command". The units continuously reported these shootings, as we have seen from the event reports; these reports were made known to a large number of agencies in the Reich.

2.7.7 Thus it is clear that the murders had a systematic character: they cannot be explained as spontaneous reactions of individual SS leaders to specific local situations; rather they followed a uniform pattern and were in accord with central orders

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.co...ence/pl220.asp

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3.1.1 In the area behind the central section of the Front, the character of the mass executions began to enter a new stage as a result of the use of the SS Cavalry Brigade. This Brigade carried out a first "cleansing operation" in the Pripet marshes between 29 July and 12 August under the leadership of the Higher SS and Police Leader, by which 13,788 "looters" (i.e. mostly Jews) were shot and 714 were held prisoner. On the side of the Brigade 2 were killed and 15 wounded. Between 17 August and 23 August the Cavalry Brigade initiated a second "action" by which, according to their own report, altogether 699 Red Army men, 1001 partisans and 14,178 Jews were shot. Shortly before these two "actions", Himmler had visited Baranovice where he ordered the brigade to kill all Jewish men and the women as well - although in a different way. From a radio-telegraph text dated August 1 from the Second Cavalry Regiment we can read: "Explicit order of the RFSS. All Jews must be shot. Jewish women to be driven into the swamp."

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On Belarus ( =White Russia )

Then on June 22nd 1941 the German invasion began. Within a matter of weeks, all of Belarus was occupied by German forces; several of the decisive KESSELSCHLACHTEN (encirclement battles) were fought on Belarusian soil. The soldiers were followed by SS units who systematically massacred the Jewish population. The remaining Belarusian population was treated with extraordinary harshness; the Germans are held responsible for 2.5 million dead in Belarus alone, a quarter of the entire population.
The area, under the name GENERALBEZIRK WEISSRUTHENIEN (General district White Ruthenia) was included in the REICHSKOMMISSARIAT OSTLAND, which also extended over the three Baltic republics.
In response to the harsh treatment by the German occupation, in summer 1942 communist PARTISAN activity increased. By late 1943 the partisans controlled about 60 % of the countryside. Minsk was liberated by the Red Army in July 1944, all of Belarus by the end of 1944.

http://stabi.hs-bremerhaven.de/whkml...axbelarus.html

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occupation regime Belarus:

http://www.president.gov.by/gosarchi...ov/eokkup.html

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More on Einsatzgruppen with a map included on some massacre places:

http://www.holocaust-education.dk/ho...tiskejoder.asp

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The German Fascist troops, that occupied Byelorussia, witnessed an almost total annihilation of the Orthodox Church.
There were no clergymen or monks, churches were either destroyed or closed. Only one, St Alexander Nevski church, situated at the old Military graveyard, was functioning in the capital Minsk, out of nine remaining churches. But the number of believers was so great, that the occupation authorities did not hinder the rebirth of clerical life, because they wanted to gain the loyalty of the population.

http://www.belarus.net/exarchat/his_3e.htm

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I think this was new; an example of german anti-partisan operation:

http://www.globalterrorism101.com/ar...rtisanOps.html

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Kai-Petri, what do you think of my thesis? I think that it's possible that most of the reports and photos are propaganda and are not in the right proportions.

regards

Charlie,

That is a tough question! Probably quite alot is propaganda, but to what extent?? I guess we´ll never know.

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Ok, this is more like Partisan warfare in the Balkans but as it belongs to the eastern front part ( I think ) so I´ll put it here.

Tito had quite alot of troops with him, assessment:January 1943,by January, Tito's partisans comprise 150,000 troops in 9 divisions, 36 independent brigades and 70 local detachments.
The Germans had close to 20 divisions to taking care of him I read!

Operation Rösselsprung (Knight's Move)-the audacious attempt to capture the communist Yugoslavian Partisan leader Josip Broz Tito.

In April 1944 SS-Hauptsturmführer Kurt Rybka took command of the battalion (SS-Fallschirmjäger Battalion 500/600 ) and prepared for the assault on the mountain base stronghold above the town of Drvar in western Bosnia. Their mission was to land within striking distance of the mountain citadel and either kill or capture Tito. Along with Fallschirmjäger Battalion 500, the 7th SS Gebirgs Division "Prinz Eugen" combined with Luftwaffe, Army, Brandenburg and Croatian troops as part of 2nd Panzer-Armee of Armeegruppe F were to attack the surrounding areas to support the assault.

The attack was to go in on 25th May with 654 men to drop in the first wave with just under half going in by parachute and the rest by glider. They were to be split in separate units with Panther group consisting of 110 men to eliminate Tito's bodyguard and capture him. Greifer group consisting of 40 men to destroy the UK military mission. Sturmer group consisting of 50 men to destroy the USSR military mission. Brecher group containing 50 men to destroy the US military mission. Daufnanger group made up of 50 Fallschirmjäger, and 20 men of "Abteilung Svadil" - a special Brandenburg unit with additional Luftwaffe signallers and interpreters from 7.SS- Prinz Eugen Division who were tasked with destroying the partisan signals unit and seizing radio code books and signal intelligence references. Beisser group consisting of 20 men to seize a specific outpost radio station, and then assist group Greifer

SS-Fallschirmjäger Battalion 500 during 21 May- 24 May transferred by trucks and railway from Kraljevo and Mataruska Banja to their airports in Zrenjanin, Banja Luka and Zagreb and on the 25th May the airdrop went ahead with fierce resistance being encountered almost immediately. The SS-Paras were pinned down almost from the start and entrance into the area of Tito's headquarters was extremely slow with several attacks were beaten back by determined resistance from the partisans. Opinion differs as to whether Tito was actually in the headquarters at the time with some sources claiming he had left well before the landing took place and others claiming he escaped by the skin of his teeth. Which ever source is correct one fact remains and that is that he had escaped the clutches of the SS Paras.

The battle went on however with more partisan reinforcements being joined to the battle and a fierce firefight ensued, all the time other elements of paras and glider-borne SS troops were being dropped around the mountains of Drvar which was also being dive-bombed by Stukas. The fighting raged on all day in the hot summer heat and the SS casualties began to mount up with only one airdrop of ammunition and supplies coming that day. The partisan forces were eventually dispersed and Rybka's men entered Tito's mountain hideaway-only to find the partisan leader had long since left the fold. Tito barely escaped the assault. There was a secret tunnel through which he and his Deputy, Edvard Kardelj, escaped. The tunnel brought them up to the top of the cliff, and from there they were ushered away by a small contingent of bodyguards to a railway, in partisan hands, and subsequently to an airfield, and a flight to Allied occupied Italy. Tito's bodyguard battalion, one company of which was female, was left behind to fight and die, in order to buy him time. It worked and the only thing the Germans got their hands on was Tito's new Marshall uniform, specially made as a birthday gift for him. Rybka who himself had been injured by a grenade was forced out of his new mountain position by renewed attacks by partisan and was forced onto the lower ground below in the valley around Drvar.

By night time they were pinned down in the town cemetery by accurate mortar fire from the partisans which lasted most of the night until the Aufklärungs-Abteilung of the Prinz Eugen Division linked up with Rybka and his men and relieved them. The assault can only be viewed as a failure due to the Partisan leader escaping but it did severely curtail partisan activity due to the need for reorganization. It has also been suggested that the leader of the British Military Mission in Drvar who at the time was Winston Churchill's son Randolph, was for a short while captured by SS paras who did not know the true identity of the man.

More on these:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwi.../AG-BALKAN.HTM

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On the partisan war; I guess the partisans milked the country as well. Just didn´t think about it, but why not..

During the Battle of Moscow, in which 8,000 Soviet citizens were executed for perceived cowardice, Hitler forced his armies to stand their ground, despite perishingly cold conditions of 43 degrees below freezing. To prevent his soldiers deserting the front line around the capital, Stalin ordered special 'blocking detachments' to shoot all deserters. The Soviet leadership also instructed Soviet partisans operating in the countryside to kill anyone who they believed was disloyal. This resulted in an effective carte blanche for partisans to abuse their power and extract whatever they wanted from helpless villagers. A report from one Partisan division shows that rape, killings and beatings were commonplace. To make villagers' lives still more hellish, in some areas, particularly the occupied Ukraine, Nationalist partisans who were bent on freedom from the Soviet regime, started up their own brutal operations in the countryside. Villagers were now faced with violence from three different fighting forces.

Nazi rule over the captured territories was draconian. Erich Koch, Reich Commissar of occupied Ukraine stated that the 'lowliest German worker is a thousand times more valuable' than the entire population of the Ukraine. Starvation was widespread, with Soviet civilians forced to eat dogs - until the dogs run out and they turned to rats, crows and birch bark. In the Ukrainian town of Kharkov, which was administered by the German Army, 100,000 people died of starvation and disease.

The German Army, faced with an ever growing partisan threat, became increasingly relaxed about what constituted a partisan. One German Army document lists 1,900 partisans and their 'helpers', killed by the Germans in one action. But only 30 rifles and a handful of other weapons were found with them - more than 90% of those killed by the Germans had no guns. And yet people still managed to survive. Inna Gavrilchenko tells how lucky she was to get a job in a slaughter house during the occupation of Kharkov. It gave her access to blood which she smuggled out and cooked into a 'blood omelette'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwt...russia_3.shtml

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Some information on this one from new sites I found...

German anti-partisan warfare went through three phases: (1) the German offensive of the summer and fall of 1941, (2) the Soviet counteroffensive of the winter 1`941-42 and the following German summer offensive to the Caucasus and Volga, ending in August of 1942, and (3) the German defensive battles from Stalingrad in November 1942 to the Soviet border in June 1944.

During the first phase the Soviet partisan movement was born and organized. I consisted of some 30,000 men, most of them hard-core communist functionaries supported by Red Army stragglers left behind the front of the advancing German armies. Although the Germans had hoped to be able to deal with guerrillas and secure their lines of communications by employing a total of 9 so-called security divisions (three divisions in each of three army groups), it soon was evident that regular front-line units had to be assigned for specific anti-partisan operations.

During the second phase, the Soviet partisan movement ran to a strength of about 150,000, organized into brigades and regiments. The partisans now had the capability of threatening rear area security to the extent that the operations of field armies and army groups were affected. The Germans were forced to counter the threat by resorting to large-scale operations, especially in the center and north sectors of the front.

During the third phase, the partisans had about a quarter of a million men. They were organized into brigades, groups, regiments, and battalions and were supported by the local population of large areas under partisan control. The partisan units were equipped with heavy weapons, artillery and even tanks. The Germans streamlined their anti-partisan organization, strengthened their security forces, and adopted aggressive counter-measures. Most effective were large-scale encirclement operations. The Germans employed, depending on the area, forces from one division to a reinforced army corps with up to half a dozen combat divisions. In terms of battalions, the total strength of some operations (e.g., Operation Zigeunerbaron near Bryansk) reached 40 battalions, reinforced by tanks, artillery and aircraft. None of these operations was fully successful because the Germans lacked the strength to throw tight encir[c]lement rings around the partisan areas.

To guard their lines of communications in the spring of 1943, the Germans employed about 250,000 men on security missions (150 German security battalions, 90 collaborator battalions, 30 satellite battalions, and more than 50,000 auxiliary police). In addition 10 training and reserve divisions had to be moved from the zone of the interior to Russia, and combat troops (divisions and corps) had to be withdrawn from the front for periods of weeks and even months. Conservative estimates would place German and Axis manpower employed in anti-partisan and security actions at 400,000 men. German commanders estimated that they would have needed twice the number to eliminate the guerrillas.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/237ADT.htm

This manuscript was prepared in the mid-1960s

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Perhaps the largest partisan operation of all was carried out in preparation for Operation Bagration. During the days preceding June 22, it is estimated that some 50,000 railroad demolitions were carried out behind German lines. This in order to prevent reserves being shuttled to the area quickly to seal the breakthroughs.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

From Hitler´s death squads by Helmut Langerbein

The unusually high ranks of the Einsatzgruppen officers offer another proof for the importance of the campaign to eliminate the jews.The leadership of an Einsatzgruppen with the personnel strength of a battalion was entrusted to generals only, and the commanding officers of the no more than company-strength Einsatzkommandos were at least colonels. Even lowly drivers, interpreters and other specialists in headquarters had officers´ ranks.

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