So often in history books, TV shows, or even general conversation, people seem to think that invading the USSR was Hitlers worst mistake. I on the other hand believe it was actually the best thing he could have done given the circumstances. The following is my interpretation:

*war with USSR inevitable, better to have pre-emptive advantage
*USSR possibly preparing for offensive war against Germany by 1942/3, better to catch them off gaurd
*Winning WW2 can only be achieved by dominating Europe. This can only be achieved by defeating USSR, as BoB ended in Britains favor, and Rainbow program a serious threat.
*All the resources Germany could want or need lies in Russia. Caucasus oil a great boon.
*If successful against Russia, pincer movement against North Africa possible...could cut suez off and strike to blow to Britain.

What do you guys think? Any opinions?

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

I fully agree with you Das Reich--I think Hitler had NO real choice in the matter as Russia was planning to start the fighting with Germany.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I wonder what happened when Hitler didn't attack Russia but concentrated on capturing England and didn't declare war on the US. Then he dominated western Europe and parts of eastern Europe. Maybe they could keep the pact with Russia and stabilize relations. The only problem is in nazi ideology that was against communism.

I tend to agree, and in addition, Hitler somehow managed to strike at the optimum moment, when the Red Army had reached rock bottom in readiness for war. Lack of trained officers, miserable supply situation, hardly any working tanks, dismantled frontier defences due border shift in Poland, lack of radios, etc. The Wehrmacht on the other hand was in top form. Had he waited even a year, things would have been quite a bit different with the advantage gap closing rapidly.

It's not really surprising the little corporal held his hunches in such a high esteem, up until mid-1942 he was mostly correct.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Stalin was not giving Hitler any choice since he was taking over the baltic states and some pieces of Hungary and Rumania. Stalin was even critical of Hitler upon the invasion of Yugoslavia showing concern for Albania and Bulgaria. Stalin was taking what he could as long as Hitler needed a 'secure' eastern front. What Stalin did not count on was Hitler attacking while Britain was still undefeated.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

I appreciate all of your input guys. My senior research paper is on how invading the Soviet Union was a necessity. By chance, if any of you have links (respectable i hope) I would really appreciate it! I can use all the resources i can get!

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

The way history went i would agree that a conflict between Russia and Germany was inevitable.
However, In response to that i would argue that Germany brought the situation upon itself through the conquering of Poland.
If Germany did not invade Poland there would not have been any war in the west and Poland would have a great strategic/political cushion between Germany's border and Russia's.
My only question would be, I wonder what would have happened if Russia alone invaded Poland?

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Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events. -- Sir Winston Churchill

Agreed on the timing of operation Barbarossa. On the attack on Russia on the whole I think it was "you´re damned if you do, you´re damned if you don´t...". The Russian resources were huge, as we have noticed.

You remember that the first set date was 15th May, later on 15th June and finally 22th June. I think this was due to the operation Marita mostly. With the additional 5 weeks, well what? Maybe,maybe not. Hitler would not give more tanks or men to attack but instead of stopping in December 1941 it would have been late October as the German forces would have been in front of Moscow. Assuming things would go the same way.

Then again it has been said that as it was so late in the summer Stalin believed the Germans daren´t attack in 1941 anymore?

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First, the war with the USSR was maybe ineviatable, because Hitler's long-term goal was always to invade the USSR. Read "mein Kampf". Second, I would like to see some facts supporting the idea that the invasion of the USSR was in any way "pre-emtive". "Barbarossa" being a "pre-emtive"-strike is revisionist nazi nonsense, it was not even a "preventive" strike (if anyone even cares about the difference).

I have some problems with the blatant statement: "war was inevitable". Evenb though we know that The USSSR was always Hitler's ultimate victim of agression, as his entire "lebensraum"-idea, his anti-bolshevism, his anti-semitism, his colonial hegemonial dreams are focussed in a invasion of the USSR, as much I think that a war is "inevitable". During the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s almost everybody said that a clash between NATO and WP is "inevitable" sooner or later, ending up in nuclear holocaust. Well, we're still alive.

POSSIBLE is the key word. I think it's a bit strange to invade a country like the USSR because it is "possible" preparing for war, huh?

I agree. One reason (the strategic one) why Hitler decided to invade the USSR.

Not all, but most, I agree. Yet another reason (The economic "Lebensraum"-idea) why Hitler decided to invade the USSR.

Right.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

I agree with you. Hitler had a desire for lebensraum in the east, which made war very likely. But the Soviets also had an ideological imperative to expand communism; and Germany was the political opposite of Russia at the time. Perhaps saying 100% inevitable was a tad far, but i would love for you to construct a plausible alternate history in which Fascist Nazi Germany and Communist Soviet Russia never go to war. Given history, the only question was how and when the war would occur.

AndyW; I think you should phone President Bush and tell him that. I agree its not a fair or just reason, but the Soviet deployment of forces along the German border was indictive of an offensive campaign, and such a campaign could destroy Germany very quickly, especially if the Reds got the time they needed to prepare for one.

Im glad you agree with me.
If Russia is occupied by Germany. then it becomes very possible to go through Arabia to get to the other side of the suez. And if that critical bit of real estate is taken, than Britain has just been hit hard.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

DasRiech, i suggest reading Hitler's War: Germany's Key Strategic Decisions 1940-45, By Heinz Magdeheimer.

It gives a lot of input on Gemany's reason for war. With Russia, although you must be a bit careful, some people think that in some sections he makes it sound like Germany declared war on Russia to defend itself like a democratic country would. It also descibes, in length, the planed Soviet surprise offensiveagainst Germany in 1942-43. This is not an alternate history book. Nor is it really a what-if? book. It provides facts, and the options available and the paths Germany took. Hope that helps you with your paper.

CvM

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Thanks for the source CvM. When I get some money, Im going to go down to the bookstore and look for a copy.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

And western european democratism was the political opposite to communism between 1945-1990. 45 years, guess the Russkies had a huge breath to wait for the right time to invade Western Europe.

Maybe back in the 1940s their "ideological imperative" wasn't as strong as thier sense for reality and the possible risks of running into uncalculable adventures like invading the No.1 Army in the World and European hegemonist.

The complete lack of political plans to support any "invade Germany"-theory suggests this.

Replace "Fscist Germany" with "Western Europe" and you have it.

As long as Hitler was in rule of Germany, yes.

LOL, in 1939, the Poles deployed their troops at...(drumroll) SURPRISE ! The border to Germany! Clearly a sign of an upcoming Polish attack!

Reality check: How would you call a political leader who deploys his Army NOT at the border from where he has to fear an invasion? I'd say: A moron. I'm not a big STAVKA strategist, but I think in 1941 it's a clever idea to have a good part of troops placed at my western border and not letting them counting deers somewhere in Southeast Siberia.

Or do you expect the French to deploy their troops and built their Maginot line along the beaches of the French Rivera to not cause the impression of preparing an offensive campaign against anyone but the Med. Sea?

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Actually on the political spectrum, communism is extreme left, fascism extreme right, and democracy roughly moderate. Maybe they achieve some of the same ends, but very different means. And why werent there hostilities 1945-90? Ever hear of nuclear weapons...

The Polish knew of the German troop movements and deployed accordingly as best they could. The Russians built up a force of 2.5 million men over the course of several months, and placed their command and supply centers well forward of where a traditional defense line would put them. Add to that, the Soviets were caught by surprise in the assault. If they were preparing for an enemy invasion, why all the chaos at the outbreak of hodtilities? Quite possibly they didnt think it would be the Germans on the attack...

Of course it was. What do you call annexation of the Baltic States, invasion of Poland and the Winter War? Russia was aggressive and expansionist during this time. Now they wouldnt challenge the germans in 1941, but what about 42/43? The Red Army was the largest army in the world at the time, and had the most and some of the best equipment. Why were they beaten back so quickly at first? Why were they disorganized and trampled? They werent preparing for a defensive war...

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

[quote]Originally posted by dasreich:

Quote:

What do you call annexation of the Baltic States, invasion of Poland and the Winter War? Russia was aggressive and expansionist during this time. Now they wouldnt challenge the germans in 1941, but what about 42/43? The Red Army was the largest army in the world at the time, and had the most and some of the best equipment. Why were they beaten back so quickly at first? Why were they disorganized and trampled? They werent preparing for a defensive war...

To shorten this, the annexation of Poland, the Baltic States, Finland wasn't a surprise for the Germans as they agreed to it in the Ribbentrop-Molotov negotiations in August 1939. Of course it's a difference to annex mini countries like the Baltic states or Finland (and the Sovs didn't even managed the later!) or start an onslaught on the European hegemonist who is armed to his teeth just to "spread communism". If the russian desire to make Germany a communist state against all costs was that urgent to risk a suicidal war, the threat of nukes (even more if you have a nice arsenal by yourself) shouldn't be a showstopper, too.

I assume the fate of the "No.1. military power in Europe, France" during six weeks beginning May 1940 made the Soviets think twice on Germany's military power.

As for Soviet political plans and initatives to invade Germany either in 1941, 1942 or later: zero evidence, but feel free to post some to support your "preventive war"-thesis. Deploying troops on along the border isn't really a proof.

As for the military doctrine: The Soviet Army was placed along the border according to the operational plans in place. This plan was the Sept. 18, 1940-plan with changes made on Oct. 5, 1940 and May 1941. Zhukovs memo asking for a pre-emtive strike dated May 15, 1941 was dismissed by Stalin. On a tactical level, the Army handbook PU-37 with certain updates was still valid.

Soviet doctrine called that in a case of enemy aggression, the enemy had to be stopped very close at the Soviet border, then fought back and beaten on his own soil.

Nice plan, failed miserably in June 1941.

Cheers,

[ 31. October 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

[quote]Originally posted by dasreich:

Quote:

The Russians ... placed their command and supply centers well forward of where a traditional defense line would put them.

Er, wots dat den?

Out of curiosity, could you define the how far forward the centres of a "traditional defence line" would be, and throw in Soviet positioning at the time? Oh, and perhaps what Soviet doctrine called for at the time, for good measure.

Quote:

Add to that, the Soviets were caught by surprise in the assault.

I always thought this quite funny. I don't know about you, but preparing for an offensive by locking all my ammunition into dumps and sending large portions of the army on leave is pretty crap way of preparing to invade someone. In addition, building up a strong second echelon where a large portion of the troops are comitted, halfway to Moscow, can hardly be construed as an offensive move in my mind.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Posted by Heartland:
A traditional defensive line would have command/supply situated to the rear, as to anticipate retreat/withdrawl.

Posted by Heartland:
If you read earlier on the thread, I mentioned the possible begining of a Soviet offensive no earlier than 1942. If its a year before expected action, then I would certainly be surprised by an invading army. As to the troops in the rear, interesting point. I have heard a little about that, but I will check further into it.

Posted by AndyW:
I am sure Stalin would reject a plan calling for a 1941 invasion of Germany...the Red Army wasnt ready for such an operation in 1941

The Soviet doctrine did call for the enemy to be stopped at their border. What better way to plan for an offense than to have your defense already set!

Posted by AndyW:
I never said i had concrete evidence that there was going to be a war. I said it was very likely given the circumstances surrounding World War 2, and that Soviet deployment on the Soviet border, and tension between the two powers, not to mention ideological differences, led to a climate very inducive of war.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

What if instead of invading in June Russia, he invades England.

So he leaves 100 divisions at the eastern front (not 153) in case of a Russian attack. He didn't stop bombing the English at the end of 1941, so the RAF and the moral (of the English) have been crushed.

But during the successfull invasion, Stalin attacks with 300 divisions towards Warsaw and Berlin.

What would happen?
Would Hitler withdraw from England?

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Hmmm. The smart thing would be to withdraw but I do not believe Hitler would, at least totally. He would withdraw the strongest and most experienced divisions.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

A successful invasion of England would require a massive effort on Germanys part. They probably couldnt invade until 1941/2, and during that time the Red Army could build up its forces and prepare them for an assault. If Stalin attacks with 300 divisions against 100 German divisions, especially once the Red Army hasd been built up enough to handle such a task, he would steamroll all the way to Berlin before Hitler could withdraw from England. Indeed, Hitler would have to take England before the historical start of Barbarossa, as to free up troops for a strike on Russia.

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"If your gonna buy the angel s**t, you might as well go for the zombie package as well."
-George Carlin

Aaaah here is the magic question that Stalin would have to ask himself.....What would be the reaction of the Japanese since they are an Axis power and the invasion would bind the Japanese to declare war on Russia? Stalin would not have 300 divisions anymore.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!