1941

June 22. Operation BARBAROSSA begins. Over 3 million German soldiers and 3300 tanks cross the Russian border. The Wehrmarcht (German Army) is organized into three Army Groups . Facing them is the world's largest army comprised of 230 divisions of 14,000 men each, with 20,000 tanks (many obsolete.)

__________________

Let's remember all the people who died since then until 1945, more than 35.000.000 people...

Very nice pictures too, Kai! But I must point out that average Soviet divisions did not have more than 11.000 men.

__________________
"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Yes it's definately a sad day

__________________
"Family, friends, religion. These are the demons you must slay if you are to become successfull in bussiness. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be sitting in some phoney-baloney church... or a SINAGOGUE!" - Montgomery Burns

Some more traditional or other "interesting" pics of the Barbarossa:





http://www.arditi43.com/stugRus.jpg





24.6.1941 ,in Sokal, russia

http://www.photosammler.de/Serien/list07e.htm

__________________

Kai-Petri,please, prove that Soviet Union had many obsolete tanks..

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

While we wait for Kai-Petri to reply, can I just offer you a warm welcome to these forums, Unix !

The Eastern Front is an area of great interest to members here and we value the opportunity to discuss these things with someone from your country .... [img]smile.gif[/img]

__________________
"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Yes, welcome Unix!

ANyway, on the subject of Russian tanks in late 1941 we can either assume they were obsolete or they were mostly destroyed, anyway. That is a fact. Of course it is a matter of taste as well whether they were obsolete or not but we must remember that most of these tanks were made from the beginning of the 1930´s and cannot be seen as suitable for the modern warfare in 1941, I think.

The armor was not thick, although the weapon in many tanks, 45 mm, would have been good enough in my view against the German tank, like digging the tanks into the ground, but this was not done, and the tanks were destroyed in huge numbers. There were not enough T-34´s etc and even these tanks were used with wrong tactics and didn´t have a radio or a commander cupola or the balance system for the gun like in the German tanks.Yet the T-34 was very destructive when it attacked.

Ok, here´s some data on the Russian tanks and production in 1930´s to the start of war:

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/ussr/

By 1935 there were more than 10,000 tanks and by 1941, 24,000.

Many different models of tanks were being built in the late 1930s. During 1940 out of 2,794 tanks built only 115 were T-34s.

During the Spanish Civil War the Soviets sent approximately 300 tanks and crew to the Republican forces. The experience taught them that they needed thicker armor to be able to compete against the German 37 mm PaK 36s.

M. I. Koshkin was appointed chief designer at the tank factory in Kharkov (builder of BT tanks) in 1937. He was given the task of designing a "shell-safe" tank. In 1938 the design bureau worked on an A-20 tank project. Koshkin and chief engineer A. A. Morosov realized that the tank had to be completely tracked. The A-32 was designed and both were tested in 1939. The A-32 became the T-34 once it had 45 mm armor installed.

With all the tanks spread out, they became easy prey during the Russo-Finnish Winter War and the German invasion. It is estimated that 1,600 tanks were lost to the Finns, and 16-17,000 during the last half of 1941 to the Germans and their allies. The primary models of tanks in the Soviet arsenal were the T-26 (approximately 12,000), the BT calvary series (approximately 8,300), the T-28 was the primary medium tank, and there were 2 battalions of T-35 heavy tanks.

The T-34 became the standard medium tank for the war after the invasion. The KV-1 was the most thickly armored tank in the world. There were 508 KVs and 967 T-34 available in June 1941, out of a total of 23,637. However, they were spread throughout the Red Army. By August 6, 1941, 13,145 were lost.

__________________

Ohh,it is depends on how long it takes the tank to became obsolete.If it is 5-10 years,then,according to your information,they are not obsolete.

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

Unix,

sometimes even a year is too long a time for a tank!

I think this tells you they were obsolete or what else happened to the Soviet tanks?

By August 6, 1941, 13,145 were lost

__________________

Russian lost that many tanks, because of 2 reasons.
1) they not planed any defence("Thanks" to Zhukov)They planed to "liberate" Europe from Nazi creature.
2)All main offensive forces were concentrated in 2
salient's,northeren- Belostokskiy,and Southern,I dont remember the name,sorry..
Those 2 army groups was surrouned by Germans,Germans got ALL Supply depots of those armies.Plus Zhukov, the head of general headquarters(GenStab),
Ordered not to answer on German provocation's,and do not shoot down planes.(Thank you great Zhukov!)

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

Hmmm...

Wasn´t Zhukov , however, the hero of Leningrad and Moscow, Stalingrad, and finally of the battle in Berlin? Or is it taught differently in Russia these days?

__________________

I think Zhukov had very little to do with the initial defeats. The forward deployments in the newly seized Polish territories had numerous reasons, and Zhukov certainly wasn't about to attack into German territory. Current Soviet doctrine at the time emphasised that any conflict should be fought on foreign land however, so the immediate goals in the event of war was to counter-attack into the German territory. This was pretty much the reason for the deployment, not any particular fault of Zhukov.

Regarding the obsolete Soviet tanks. Most Soviet tanks weren't more obsolete than, say, the German PzKpfw-II and PzKpfw-35. Really, the main reasons the Soviets lost so many were that they lacked support facilities, ie they broke down, ran out of fuel, never started in the first place, never were issued ammo, etc. All of this compunded by Stukas blowing up dumps and such, of course. I'd say the biggest fault quality-wise was lacking radios.

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Yes,Zhukov have not planned to invade Germany,Stalin had. Spirit of war flyed in the air!In June-July Soviet soldiers were speaking about "little walk to Berlin soon". And Zhukov,as Head of GenStab,should advise to Stalin:"we should build up defence, we should plant mines on enemy's way, we should take away our main forces from the borders" and so on... He did not do Anything!! Zhukov just a miserable butcher, just remember such names as Elnia, Sichevka, Berlin, Counter-attack during 1942 winter, which was a failure, when he told to Stalin, "enemy is weak and falling back on all directions!"Stalin decided to attack on all directions as well. You know about the results.
And yes,on russian history lessons on theme 2ww Zhukov drew as a hero,saver of Russia,but I have my own point of view.Kai-Petri,have you read his book named " memory's and thought's"(vospominania i razmishlenia)? This book is full of lies..

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

Can't say I agree really. Yes, Zhukov certainly pushed his troops forward in the face of horrible casualties on more than one occasion. On the other hand, he often got the results as well. The Elnia/Yelnia example you mention above is one of them, certainly a bloody affair and seemingly lost as well. But, on the other hand, it is also arguably the action that delayed the German advance long enough to save Moscow and by extension quite possibly the nation!

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Yes, I´ve started reading Zhukov´s memoirs a while ago. AS well a while back I read Chuikov´s memoirs on the battles since autumn 1943. Chuikov does give quite alot of blame on Zhukov for several things....

Ok, Unix, let´s hear your view. The heroes of the Soviet side for 1941-1945?

__________________

Zhukov can't be a hero of Stalingrad, he commanded Western front and was busy at Rzhevsko-Sychevskaia
operation, where he without show of any war talent killed a lot of Soviet troops. He can't be a hero of Leningrad. Perhaps you know, that Hitler took away best tank group from Notheren army group, when they Surrounded Leningrad. Plus Leningrad( St. Peterburg) was forified by All Russian Rulers from 1703, Leningrad is Perfect stronghold, I seriously doubt, that Germans could capture Leningrad.. And Moscow, German forces were exhausted, support lines were extremaly long, they stopped themselfs.
Soviet hero during 1941-1945? Vasilevskiy perhaps, Stalin.

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

To Heartland: Zhukov showed his incompetence during Yelnia operation, what for he stormed it?This would be better to fall back little, and build up perfect defence! The winter was near, that what Germans afraid of. But Zhukov stormed it. What for??

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

The Germans were stopped at Yelnia for several weeks, they suffered an ammonition crisis, they were forced to dig in, spent their rare supply to this salient just to finally withdraw from the sailent. I would consider this a tactical defeatof the Germans. If you read von Bock's diary you'll see the headache Yelnia caused to him, screwing up his entire timetable. All this would not happened if the Red Army would have withdrawn any further (with a Soviet rail system under heavy distress, I wonder how much troops and equipment would have arrived in the rear defense positions).

Falling back "little" to built up "perfect" defence in the areas of mobile warfare is very hard to accomplish.

Operationally speaking, the Soviet's forward defense (& strike back)-doctrine is including the risks of being flanked out and becoming encircled but works perfectly to pull out momentum of the attacking force. Advantage is that you "buy" more time by stiff delayed defensive compared to an all-out withdrawal probably finding yourself in a only slightly better defense situation, but with demoralized, decimated troops and equipment and a good part of your country given as a gift to the enemy. Disadvantage is that you'll have to sacrify your troops as wavebreakers to a certain degree.

I can't say that letting millions of red Army soldiers becoming encircled and destroyed is a sign of clever operational genius, however with the existant Soviet military doctrine and under the given Soviet logistigal circumstances, a large disengagement movement was not possible (nor wished by Stalin, btw).

The Red Army soldiers who were encircled in the huge pockets stood firm and were sacrified for the sake of buying time. Tough for the Reds, lucky for the Nazis. But even with so much working positively for the nazis, it still worked out for Stalin at the end, as we know.

I can't say if an all-out full withdrawal to a more or less fortified Leningrad-Moscow-Rostov-line, facing the attack of fully intact German Army in September would have worked out that way.

But I daer to say that if the Red Army would have managed to save more men & material in the inital months, Germany would never have sawn anything more eastern than Vjasma, but that is Monday morning quarterbacking.


As usual in this Redzun-discussions, I'd like to ask for sources supporting your assesment that Stalin planned to attack germany in 1941.

Cheers,

__________________
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

It's not quite as easy as that - contrary to popular opinion the defensive posture didn't do much good against the Germans in the initial stages of the war, as they then promptly punched through the then more or less immobilized troops and encircled them. Not until 1943 could the Red Army hope to withstand a determined German attack in summer conditions. During 1941 and 1942 the Wehrmacht broke through the tactical defenses into the operational depth with relative ease on most occasions when they made a determined push. The only weapon the Red Army could bring against this at the time were attempts to dislodge and disrupt preparations and plans, while wearing the enemy down. This is pretty much what Zhukov achieved at Yelnia when AGC was forced to evacuate the salient. Also, the fighting exhausted and caused severe losses among several AGC infantry divisions, which would come in very handy when Typhoon finally launched.

One needs only to peek into German reports and the sudden change in tone of the German High Command to realize that this fighting had some pretty serious impact. All in all the Red Army often caused much more trouble counter-attacking the Wehrmacht rather than standing still and waiting for the Germans to do their worst. Even if this meant heavier fighting and casualties along the way...

__________________
"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

To AndyW: He..Thats changed my views on Yelnia operation,excepting one thing. Arn't German forces were suffered an ammonition and fuel crisis, and they were forced to dig in when they captured this Yelnia? You saied that Yelnia was a sailent, that mean that Germans were on march, and were able to made this sailent, and that means that they wasted a lot of ammo and fuel, soldiers were tired. Thats why, I guess, Germans dig into soil,they have no opportunity to go any further.
You are asking for a source of my statement that Stalin planned to attack Germany in 1941? And do you know Russian language that good mein freund? [img]smile.gif[/img] Anywhay, I doubt that anyone will find any Stalins word's like :"I am going to strike Germany" in difference from Hitler, Stalin have not told to Anyone about his plans. But there a lot of facts, which can tell you about this.
Here some links,where you can find those facts:
http://militera.lib.ru/research/meltyukhov/index.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov1/index.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov5/index.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov7/index.html

__________________
Kto k nam s mechom pridet, ot mecha i pogibnet!

I never heard of a Soviet plan to invade Germany in 1941, but I have heard of plans to invade Germany in 1942.

Too bad I don't know Russian

__________________
"Family, friends, religion. These are the demons you must slay if you are to become successfull in bussiness. When opportunity knocks, you don't want to be sitting in some phoney-baloney church... or a SINAGOGUE!" - Montgomery Burns

I think the link is quite enough actually! Pretty muc