I have just been schooled by Fried (rubs sore bottom and winces) about the poor support that the German forces received in their campaign on Moscow.

How did the German army continue to fight as well as they did if their numbers were so depleted and their logistics were so poor?

I knew of some problems that they had, winter clothing and poor ability to winterize weapons and vehicles, now I learn how much worse it was. How did they keep from just folding up in the following spring? Was this due to their army staff, the common soldier, unit morale, or good discipline? What say you?

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

I say due to the soldat...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

according to two of my best friends , both of them survivors of the war, one in the Heer and the other in the Kreigsmarine, and both serving on the Ost front during Moscow, it was a matter of undersupplied and too lengthy supply lines. Items from Germany never arrived during the bitter cold months with the inclusion of non-winterized clothing which the Wehrmacht succumbed. Only after general mud in the spring was Germany able to bolster their men with needed materials and continue the advance elsewhere. it pays to have a fool of a leader in your midst

Erich, your friends, did they say how they coped as soldiers? That is what I was really asking. Despite the poor logistical support and greatly reduced unit strength the German armies still did well. What kept their unit effectiveness up?

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

Training. The Heer vet served in the 1st Infantire Divison out of Ost Preussia. Much symbolism and Kamradery in the unit which he accepts as one of the reasons why he stayed alive and fit even when the MT engines were freezing on the spot. The brother of his Otto served in a Baltic KM 8.8cm Flak batterie soon to be in a KM feld-division. he attributes the close connection with the unit as several of his batterie he knew in his youth before the war and they remained friends until he lost them in late 44 off the Finnish coast. there was a great sense of pride and determination till war's end for both brothers until the retreat off Hela/Danzig bay and the fall of Königsberg where both served in spring of 45 within and out of the city and the retreat to the coast.......

I'll throw in two cents' worth here - 'Black Hawk Down' is in no way a favourite movie of mine, but toward the end there is one line which, to me, gives an insight into the life of the combat soldier - 'It's about the man alongside you'.

From accounts I've read, this was certainly the case for both sides on the Eastern Front in particular. The conditions were virtually unimaginable.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

There's also some nasty aspect which must be mentioned, though, that was very important to mantain cohesion during the last months of the war: harsh discipline (many court martials, shootings and hangings) and ideological indoctrination. Specially after July 20th 1944, the General Staff (under Guderian) drastically insisted in national-socialising the-already nation-socialised soldiers, by convincing them that they had to have no marcy at all with the barbarian Soviet Untermenschen. If the Sub-human Slavs stepped on German soil, it would be the end of the Fatherland and of the German Volk. Also, the Red Army was supposedly not taking prisoners and, therefore, they needed to fight till the end.

According to what I've come to find out about my grandfather, who was a sniper and officer at the Wehrmacht and veteran of the eastern front, all was about the excellent basic training of German regular infantry soldiers (at least until 1944), the experience and knowledge of non-comissioned officers and junior officers and, of course, the camradeship between men. My grandpa said that the men, when finding themselves alone, surrounded by the immensity and hostility of Russia, tended to depend on the most familiar things they were able to find: their countrymen.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Quote:< How did the German army continue to fight as well as they did if their numbers were so depleted and their logistics were so poor?

I knew of some problems that they had, winter clothing and poor ability to winterize weapons and vehicles, now I learn how much worse it was. How did they keep from just folding up in the following spring? Was this due to their army staff, the common soldier, unit morale, or good discipline? What say you?>
German morale was low until the spring offensive at Kursk.
As the others have said, training and pride.Excellent soldiers IMO.
To hear some here, they should have folded in 6 months, yet held out for 6 years.
Fighting on 3 fronts,getting bombed night and day,they're every move being 'discovered' by the allied code-breakers,etc., I'd say they did a pretty good job. just my 2cents.

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The winter 1941-42 battles were the only ones probably when Hitler´s order not to step back an inch worked. Unfortunately Hitler thought later on that it would work as well ( unfortunate for Hitler that is ).

The German army morale and discipline were probably the things that achieved all this in 1941-42. After stopping the Red Army Juggernaut both sides had to supply their troops and reorganize, as well as wait until the weather conditions would allow new offensive actions

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I know the Russians had winter offensives during several winters. Was the 1941-42 winter one of them?

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

I would have a lot to say on this thread but I am travelling and time is lacking

In the meantime you can take a good look at this fine web source for a hard look at the West Front (depending on which side you look at it )

http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publica...g-war41-45.pdf

Keep it up!

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Yes, bigiceman,

and here´s one site on it with a map and a short story on it.

http://www.serpukhov.su/dima/war/eng/ebattle.htm

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Excellent reference Kai, thanks.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

The Germans tried to kill Stalin in Operation Zepplin. KG-200 provided an Arado Ar-232B for the operation but it crash landed 90 miles short of Moscow.
http://history1900s.about.com/librar...lsecretkg2.htm
Go to about half way down the page.
Some of the crew actually made it back to German lines!!

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

That is an interesting article. I have been facinated by the espionage stories from the war for several years. This plot to kill Stalin is a new one.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL