Was the Marcks Plan of the invasion of the U.S.S.R a better plan or was it just not feasible?

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

Not Marcks, nor Paulus', nor Halder's, nor anyone's plan was feasable. Germany could not defeat the Soviet Union, specially without ANY plan at all… (which was the actual case, because no plan was rejected and none accepted…)

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

With enemies like these who needs friends?

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

What exactly was Marcks' plan?

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"I die for my fatherland. I have a clear conscience." - Admiral Wilhelm Canaris

The initial German military proposal for an invasion of the Soviet Union which feature called for two army groups and primary strikes in the direction of Moscow and Kiev with a secondary attack toward Leningrad. The northern army group would push southward after reaching Moscow, linking up with the southern group at Kharkov.

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

The whole plan was based on the "Kick the door in and the whole structure collapses" idea which it did not...

By August Hitler should have realized it´s going to last a bit longer than the 2 months he mentioned.

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Hitler's ego and the myth of Germany as the supreme ruler got the better of him. Germany had the technology, but Russia had the man power. I can not see how any plan could have worked.

PS The T34 Tank took the Germans by surprise that must have been a shock to the invaders.

[ 29. January 2006, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Richard42 ]

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

With my membership here I have learned that Hitler and his cowtowing staff were indeed incapable of taking Russia. They didn't have the logistical ability unless the Russians just rolled over and played dead. Since the Russians did not do this the German's should have immediately proposed a peace treaty and just been happy with what they could keep afterward. At least until the Russians came to take it back.

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PEOPLE SLEEP PEACEABLY IN THEIR BEDS AT NIGHT ONLY BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY TO DO VIOLENCE ON THEIR BEHALF. GEORGE ORWELL

The German policy of the slavs as subhumans guaranteed that they were in no position to discuss peace terms when they found out they were losing the war. Too many people killed/sent to camps. They either win or lose. Totally.

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Another blunder is to reject over a million Ukranian volunteers because they were 'Untermensch'

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Yes that was a big Blunder, Vital manpower I know some units were formed in the Waffen SS I think it was some time in 1943 but too late.

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

Steiner was one of the people who wanted the SS to be an 'European' Army, foretunatly the bigotry from Hitler and Heini blocked that until later in the war.

However the number of Freiwillige and Volksdeutsche made up nearly half of the SS overall.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Foriegn Volunteers did not just appear late in the war. Several units made up from Western volunteers appeared fairly early.

In the Winter of 1940, hundreds of volunteers from Denmark, Norway, Holland and Belgium were incorporated into two new units. When the flow became so great SS Regiments Nordland and Westland were expanded into the new division named 'Wiking'.

Wiking was in the forefront of the German invasion of the USSR from the first day.

Lets also not forget the foriegn troops serving in the Wehrmacht at the same time too...

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"Watch that Fu*ker, he'll 'ave someones eye out!" King Harold at Hastings 1066.

Red Baron

My grandads neighbour is called 'Nordland' for obvious reasons. But in the early years entry to the SS was very strict regarding race/nationality. It was later in the war that the freiwillige made up nearly half of the SS.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Good points TheRedBaron, I was thinking more on the lines of Soviet volunteers.

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

I know the wehrmacht used Hiwis alot. I can't remember the actually number, but it might have been some where around a million.

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"Front leaning rest position"
"Move"
"In cadence, exercise....1, 2, 3" (My favorite thing to hear at 5 in the morning.)

I read a good study on the organization of the Waffen-SS, and the conclusion is that the more the war advanced, the less volunteer the volunteers were. Actually, even German nationals were being simply drafted from 1943 onwards from the Wehrmacht manpower pool, no pretence at all at volunteerism. Not enough volunteers were forthcoming, so the WSS helped itself.

I don't have the book at hand right now, but after some cajoling I can convince my wife to dig in up in my office at home ...

Aha, she found it! "Hitler´s Elite Guard at War the Waffen SS 1939-1945" Autor: George H. Stein. ISBN ISBN: 1841451002

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Everly Brothers - What I Have To Do Is Dream
"Never wrestle with pigs, you both end up getting dirty and the pig likes it."

Thanks Za Rodinu I will have to try and get hold of that book for myself.

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Regards, Richard

There back this Xmas 2008

After readying a 30 page report from a military historian of Operation Barbarossa I have come to about 3 main conclusion for their loss and also a few minor ones. The first major one being hitler himself and his not 1 inch back policy. The second major one being hitler changing the invasion plan by heading south to take the caucasus oilfields. This inturn spread the lines to thin plus with the spring rains turning the roads into mud didn't help at all with getting supplies to the front. Also the fact that during the winter of 1941 they had no winter cloth's at all. When they finally did get winter cloth's it was only because the cloth's had been donated by the german civilians themselves. The third major factor being the American and British bombings of the german industry. By mid to late 1944 the allied bombings alone had destroyed over 90% of the german synthetic fuel production. You can't operate your army,airforce, and navy without fuel. Also another last detail would have to be the fact that because of hitler not allowing his troops a mobile defense they were forced into mass vs. mass battles. Which obiously the germans couldnt win when your outnumbered by almost 2million men in total on just 1 front alone. "That last bit also depends on the year though." Another reason the germans could have lost could be the simple fact of they just had to much land to cover. They could only compensate about 40-50% of their army on the eastern front. While russia could put over 90% of its army on the russian front.

After reading this anyone can come to the conclusion that its just not 1 simple reason,event or fact for why germany lost. It was the culmination of a series of events and facts. I hope you enjoyed this fun filled knowledge process. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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