my mistake guys over 2000 planes were destroyed in the battle ( did more research ) if fact over 200 planes were lost in the first day of battle.
This is not to say that the soviets didnt take huge casualties. They lost a huge number aswell.


And Erich i wouldnt exatcly call soviet armore weak. A t-34 medium tank could penetrate a tiger head on with new 85mm barrel and im not even going to mention the IS series which could pentrate a tiger over 1000 yards away! Yes i know they were built in 44' Cant reall say that about any other allied tanks in the war. Especially when talking about the sherman!

By the way guys my sources are in 2 languages,

Alexander Wrath was an american author who lived in Russia during the outbreak of the war and wrote a book on the conflict titled Russia at war. Great book very accurate for the most part but yes its questionable points as due most novels on the conflict.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Though I can imagine that the figure of total German planes were at 2000 those are the figures let out in the west. In the east the figure show slightly higher numbers.

So I can understand why and where you get your doubts.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Erich

The battle was hardly a draw. Given operational goals it was a failure for the Germans.

As to the manpower and equipment lost. The Germans couldn't afford it. The Red Army could.

Even the elite SS divisions did not tip the scales for Germany. No matter what reports or stories of tank aces killing x-number of enemy equipment, or advancing fast and deep. It was local events. The larger picture speaks for itself.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Thank you Jaeger!

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Speaking of myth's Erich this article tells exactly what the west such as youself think about the " Ivan " and his contribution to the war. Read it, i think you will find a lot of similarities between your opinions and facts to the ones that the author writes about in this article of how the west views the Ivan. The countries that were liberated by the russians and even Germans that I have spoken to disagree with your views very much.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?acti...story_id=17541

sorry this is the article

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

that was one heck of a battle, can you imagine....2000 planes? with losing 200 a day....
all i can say is...wow

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

The Kursk operation was for the Germans a total disaster and it goes a long way to understanding the Soviets greater victory in 1944, the German army was not in any kind of position to launch a major offensive at Kursk.

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Regards, Richard

hmmmm an article on a russian site, interesting

ok first where do we get the 200 a/c from ?, Soviet or and German ? also 200 a/c a day GErman or Soviet or both ?

my statements were regarding the south salient only and I apoligize to all if this was misunderstood and I do beleive I was.

I can not think of one German veteran nor familie mameber nor GErman freind that lioved in Eastern Germany to the Elbe that were glad the Soviets advanced and took over German space. in fact quite the opposite. slon, I lost 3 relatives on my mothers side in the Heer serving on the Ost front and youngest was enroute home from a Gulag and died enroute back home to the Pfalz. In his journals what there are of them he was beaten starting with his capture on a daily basis for "fun". War can be and is the Sh**'s

Disaster for the Germans no doubt, the rolling Wehrmacht due to the stab stupididty could never regain what is was in 41-42 if it was anything to begin with. i firmly beleive after interviewing about 5-6 vets that fought on the southern spher that in that area the battle drew a draw. yes the books say otheriwse but I like to get an overall balance to say..........this is what I have done with the air war and web-site that I hel[p run but that is another story. Not trying to be a revisionist which I have been called many times, just one that is after the "real truth"

Za my comments made on third party were the behind the scenes secret dealings and sent back to Russia advizeing the Soviet general staff as the Germans intentions even with the lower ranks feeling that the country was not in their favour and the new Tiger wonder weapons at their backs the feeling of being overhwlmed and just slugging it out was all to honned deep into the Landsers mind.........geez this sounds like a nam repeat. Go get em Tiger we are right behind you so the General stab says.........and in reality, you are given so much time to accompiosh your mission(s) and will not have any backup to support you. Yikes de-ja vue

make sense ? probably not

Erich

Sorry to hear about the lost relatives, but during the 5 year occupation, my village had 13 killed because they didn't adhere to the commandments of Josef Terboven. (+7 lost at sea and two killed in the '40 campaign.) And I guess anyone from the 'sub races' countries would vouch for me when I say that we did not enjoy our 'visitors'.

As to talking to vets for a perspective of a battle... My grandad fought in the '40 campaign here in Norway and experienced the Claymore operation in Lofoten.

The first hand experience is quite different from an official raport. Not implying that my grandad is right and official raports are wrong. He defeated the paras at Dombås, but we lost the campaign.

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'We march. The enemy is retreating in transport. We follow on foot.' Lt.Neil McCallum 5/7 Gordons 19th November 1942

Jaeger how well I know that the official docs are quite differnt than chatting with the vets. sure cross examination does help and is needed to accept a total picture of the battle/campaign and war.

I can only try to understand what it was like to have the invaders in your backyard. I have been told by reltaives in Germany that I am sure lucky to live in a time like I do now.........I'm not so sure of that but tyranny is hell in any perspective and applaud what the Soviets, and Allies in the west did to stop the German juggernaut on the field of battle. My relatives have all said they were wrong their country run by a fool to push us ever and ever into a pit they could not get out. As my relatives still living are farmers and vineyard owners/employees even during the war, all they wanted to do was try and carve out an existance, as many throughout Europe and Russia.
By the way I also lost two other relatives that were pilots in the Luftwaffe .......

my family too fought in the war. grandfather in the last days of Stalingrad who lost a thumb from shrapnel and my other Grandfather fought in the opening days of Battle for Berlin and was was killed.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

thats interesting, that has to stink...losing ones thumb to shrapnel...

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

yea tell me about it. He always joked about it though, I guess now I can see why.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

It is very interesting for us to speak at such liberty of these events, but they certainly were pure hell for all those involved at the sharp edge, combatants and most especially civilians who could not simply defend themselves. All this finally because of the madness of one.

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There is an ass in my avatar.

Yes Za that I agree. Its scary to think about what one man in charge off a powerfull country can do to the whole world.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

I think Stalin summed this rather well: " Bigger countries have bigger needs!" which explains why for example Finland was always wrong trying to hold onto its land areas (before the Winter War)which the USSR demanded and Stalin could not understand that. A small country should always give in because its needs are not important according to this. Once I read about and understood this theme I realized you cannot try to make any sense into any dictator´s demands or such because there probably might not be any. And trying get rid of those demands by any explanations won´t work.

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[quote]Originally posted by Erich:
[QB] hmmmm an article on a russian site, interesting


Erich,

If im not mistken I believe that sounds like a little bit of sarcasm. If it is, im not quite sure the sarcasms intent, considering that the article is written by an American.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Personally I think Mr Uhler is mixing matters to make his article more interesting. How can you bring up cold war issues on "Ivan" by the US when we are talking about WW2 period in the article really. We definitely know that after WW2 both sides said rather nasty things about each other for "some reason". And that has nothing to do with WW2 facts. Also he slams the book because no such book on the US troops is made (??).

I read the book and considered it rather good and telling of the feelings and life of men at the front. And who says it shatters "the myth of Ivan"?? I can only see MR Uhler say that, BTW, so why does the site print his article? Looks like shooting yourself in your own foot to me.

Comments on the book elsewhere:

http://www.holtzbrinckpublishers.com...ookKey=1536066

"Unprecedented in its approach, Catherine Merridale’s research into the lives of Red Army soldiers combined with her perception makes this a most fascinating and important work.”
—Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

“Merridale’s new book is excellent. This unique, strikingly original account of the Red Army in World War II is a first-rate social history
as well as an important military study, and a stellar example of the combination of oral history with standard archival research. It makes the
soldiers of the Red Army come alive.”

—Stanley Payne, Hilldale-Jaume Vicens Vives Professor of History, University of Wisconsin-Madison


Ivan’s War is a marvelous book. All of Catherine Merridale’s virtues are on display: remarkable research (based in this case on literally hundreds of interviews with survivors and witnesses); a clear, unpretentious style that belies the complexity of her material; comfortable historical command of a dauntingly large theme; and a rare compassion and empathy for her subjects.
—Tony Judt, author of Postwar: A History of Europe Since 1945

“This is an inventively researched and evocatively written study of the Soviet soldier on the blood-ridden Eastern Front. Using freshly available archival materials, as well as sparkling interviews with a vanishing generation of veterans, Merridale has provided an empathetic and realistic portrait of the men and women who, more than any other combat soldiers, brought down the Third Reich.”

—Norman M. Naimark , author of The Russians in Germany and Fires of Hatred

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Just one question: Why did Stalin make the pact in Aug 1939 with Hitler? If anything this piece of paper unleashed WW2 into full flames! A pact against Hitler would have guaranteed that Hitler could never have started the war!


[img]graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/no.gif[/img]

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i will definatly need to read that

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"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -Winston Churchill

Yes, Kai I agree with you that Ivan's wae is a great book but im not sure that Uhler is dicrediting her information,it sounded to me like he was agreeing with the big picture but just mentioned that some aspects that she didnt like desertion and cowardness and a few others which every military in the world suffers during a conflict. And the reason i believe that he brought up the cold war was because even today ( and I know this because I went to school in America ), teachers would only talk about how the U.S. won the war and by the way they talked, you wouldnt even know that Russia was involved.
I find this a little offensive as would any other Russian or European. And the cold war comparison would come with today's teachings in which not much has changed and as a result a very large majority of Americans believe that America won the war and Russia helped a little bit. In reality it was the other way around. Even with England doing more.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler