And people say that Stalin had no heart

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Now that was a surprise! I didn't know that.

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neither did I a few days ago [img]smile.gif[/img]

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http://www.costnet.com/images/skyhawk-pic.jpg

Eh? For earlier Yak-1 and Yak-7s I agree. The later Yak-9 and Yak-3 fighters had great performance and was every bit the equivalent of current Spitfires, probably a lot better than the banged-up and used older Marks the Soviets were getting delivered.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Ah, the "inferior" P-39, one of my favourite pet peeves!

The much-maligned P-39 was prefered by a wide margin by Soviet pilots. It is worth pointing out that it was only inferior at the higher altitudes the western Allies required aircraft to fight at - it was perfect for the medium- to low-altitude air superiority and intercept missions the Soviets used them for while supporting tactical bombers and support aircraft. At these altitudes the P-39 was on par with the 109s and and FWs, with good speed, climb and maneuverability. As the war went on the Soviets field-modded or got the US manufacturer to improve the design, such as ditching the relatively useless 37mm gun. There is a distinct lack of Axis reports where they swat hapless P-39s out of the sky, quite the opposite. Not to mention that about half of the top ten Allied aces of the war flew P-39s for most of their careers...

The Spitfires shipped to the Soviets were used and rather old. I have accounts of Soviet pilots noting the banged-up appearance and number of patched bullet-holes in the airframes they received, and this concerns old Mk.Vs in 1943, in which they are supposed to face the latest Bf-109Gs and Focke-Wulfs. At lower altitudes the wide wings of the Spit bleeds a lot of energy when turning - not a great selling point for the Soviets either.

As for the Hurricane, one Soviet pilot noted that the Hurricane was nice for sightseeing around the countryside "...but unfortunately we were forced to appraise it from a somewhat different situation". They considered it a crap plane, basically. Rugged, but still crap. Overall I would say the Hurricane was the worst of the lot (along with the P-40) by the time of Barbarossa - it had trouble keeping up with 109s already during the Battle of Britain and got slaughtered over Malta...

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Though it did good work as a ground attack kite with various modifications (the Hurricane that is).

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Heartland, if you were given the choice of a Spitfire or a P-39 to take on the 109s and FWs, what would it be?

Depends where and what your objective is.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

Have to agree with Stefan - depends on the mission parameters, or at least doctrine used by whomever "I" am flying for. Hard to make a blanket statement, and another very significant aspect is the state of the aircraft and what version it is, of course, like mentioned above...

At higher (western-style) altitudes I would NOT want to be in either one of the Russian second-hand Spit Mk.V or fresher P-39s while facing 109Gs and FWs 1943-ish. But the Spit should be the preferable choice among the two, maybe. At lower (eastern-style) altitudes I would go with the P-39, which the Russians proved to be the equal of the latest Bf-109s and FWs up until 1944 at least.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

My choice would mostly depend on the color scheme. There's no way I'm gonna get seen on an ugly aircraft.

More seriously, I agree with Heartland, the most common lend leased spit (Spitfire V) was really getting old when it was delivered, and, although it remained a very maneuverable plane, with very decent climb capabilities, and good weapons.

But it was very slow, it could not compete with 1943, not even speaking of 1944 bf 109 (G2-various G6) nor fw 190 (A4-A5-A6-A8).

BTW I haven't found evidence of widespread use of the Spit V on the Eastern front later than fall 1943.

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If Prada had made a fighter that side would have sooo won much quicker. At least long before the SS got that white is the new black anyway, and Monty dropped the silly hat thing that is sooo 20s.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

The P-39 worked for the Soviets primarily because their opponet, the Luftwaffe, was insufficently strong to force the Red Air Force into playing a game not of their choice. That is, the initiative in the air lay with the Soviets by the time the P-39 began to arrive in-theater in quantity.
The Soviets could mount offensive sweeps using superior numbers of aircraft far more frequently than the Luftwaffe by early 1943 when the P-39 began to enter Soviet service (216th Air Division later 9th Guards Air Division). This forced the Germans to respond on Soviet terms; combat below 15,000 feet for the most part. The P-39 was sufficent in this realm to be effective. Its having a radio (many Soviet fighters lacked one at the time) was a big advantage. It also boasted good visibility and reliablity along with more firepower than many Soviet designs. Unlike in US service where the P-39 had too little range this was not a big problem for the Soviet situation.
I think that if the Soviets had faced a stronger more concentrated Luftwaffe the P-39, along with many of their own designs, would have faired far worse than they did. Altitude would have mattered if the Germans held the initiative just as it did in the Mediterrainian and Pacific where combat usually took place at the upper end of the P-39's effective altitude range (12,000 to 25,000 feet).

If Prada had made a fighter that side would have sooo won much quicker. At least long before the SS got that white is the new black anyway, and Monty dropped the silly hat thing that is sooo 20s. </font>[/quote]You say that, but Hugo Boss did make uniforms for the Germans and they still lost

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

"This forced the Germans to respond on Soviet terms; combat below 15,000 feet for the most part."

I'd say the opposite, they were well known for getting up high & bouncing Soviet fighters & using their better altitude to good advantage, something the Mustang did on the other end of the conflict. Now it is true that the Germans had to drop down to their altitude to nail em, but they did not have to remain at that altitude. So being forced to respond on Soviet terms is not exactly a truism. The Germans fought on their "own terms" by using altitude to their advantage.