As most of you know I am doing a 4000 word essay on Operation Uranus. I have also decided to do my school essay on a history topic and I am picking Operation bagration.

I am focusing on the German incompetence and how they caused the decisive soviet victory over AGC.

What are some German failures that can be argued in detail I need around 4.

What are some other factors that caused the soviet victory?



Thanks,
Eps

Im not sure its so about the German incompetence rather then Russia's ability to deceive the Germans and execute a brilliant offensive which caught German's completely by surprise.

Speaking of which, that offensive reminds me very much of what the Germans accomplished in the opening months of Barbarossa

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Well I am trying to argue that if it wasnt for the german Incompetence the germans would not have lost they way they did.


What exactly did the russians do and how did it?

I recall that Hitler believed the attack would come from the southern sector not in the middle, and as always der Führer is correct. The Soviets also managed to keep more troops in the attacking sector though maskirovka, and the Germans had no idea of the true number of the Red Army tanks in the main offensive area. So the Germans had actually moved their armor strength in the southerh sector.

I´ll be back with some more details later on.

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I don't see any blatant incompetence from the Germans in Op. Bagration.

What they certainly had was an absolute lack of means and so couldn't do much against the Red Steamroller in full swing anyway, even discounting their playing mind games with the Gemans with their Maskirovka and fooling them as usual.

Just look at the comparative Order of Battles and see if they had any chance. They did the best they could improving what was already defensive terrain (it wasn't a picnic for the Sovs for that reason), so I can't honestly fnd reason for Incompetence here much to my chagrin.

The Germans fought well, the Germans fought hard, but when the Sovs put down D-Day as the Barbarossa Anniversary, well, they had to mean business.

Read this and that for the time being, and Steve Zaloga's book from Osprey is also a very good intro.

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Definitely not a chance for victory for Germany. Not even a draw. But losing the AG center´s men is a shame for Hitler´s war planning. And this was the famous "not a step back" command and making fortress cities etc. So it definitely would have looked alot different with retreating in some kinda order and not losing all those men. I bet Hitler could have kept the war in East ( and West ) going on for another 6 moths or more at least with similar tactics as in Italy, letting the troops move backwards to new prepared defensive lines.

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So there is no argument on german incompetence?

Mayby I can argue the decisions of the soviet high command as the cause of the decisive soviet victory?

I am just worried because I dont want to do something that is well known to everyone and cannot be argued because it is already proven.

My memory is a little rusty but if im not mistaken, the Russians had 3 tanks armies in the south. Certainly a such a show of force may cause reason for alarm for the Germans facing them on the other side?

The Russians also played nothing short of a brilliant game of deception. I remember reading that during the day, tree branches would be tied to the wheels of Russian vehicles to raise the dust from the ground when driving down roads as to show the Germans that a large force was being amassed there. This would be done several times only by a few jeeps a few miles apart but would look mighty convincing for the Germans on the other side viewing their binoculars. The Russians also brought in 3 whole kitchens capable of feeding several hundred thousand men adding to the deception and helping with the belief of a pending attack not to mention a periodical artillery barage on the Germans. All of this forced the Germans to use more reconnaissance aircraft over the "would be attack" zone. The panzers from AGC were also moved to reinforce the south, but only after German generals were sure that the attack would come there and warned Hitler of the consequences if not moved. This left a skeleton force of less then 600 tanks in AGC.

Unless im mistaken, I also believe that in the speed in which this operation was carried out made it very difficult for the Germans to withdraw or even take an action as they were completely taken by surprise.

Leading to what many historians claim as the greatest offensive against the Germans in the entire war.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

There are many proven cases but there are always numbskulls who want to argue them, so I dont think you have anything to worry about

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Well after reading some of wiki and reading your comments I think it is better that the Soviet High command was responsible for the decisive victory. Did Zhukov make all the decision or is this like Operation Uranus where everyone did something?

As Soliniksp pointed out

1) The soviet Deception caused the victory

2) Speed of the attack caused the victory

I also need 3-4 more points on the soviet decisions to argue in 2-3 paragraphs each.


I am also going to argue in like 3-4 paragraphs that the German incompetence exploited by the Russians caused the victory

1) Hitlers order to fight till the last man caused the fall of AGC

and as T.A pointed out in another thread

2) The Germans did not use their Tanks properly

3) " They violated virtually every theory and rule of the military art "

Everyone always plays a part, Zhukov was the man in charge though.

Remeber that by this time all that Germany could do was to try to stall the Red advance as they were no longer able to attack. This also played into the hands of the Russians as now they ( just as the Germans in the opening months of Barbarossa ) chose the time and place on an attack.

All the Germans could pray for was to hold them back.

And who the hell is Soliniksp?!?

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

LOL my bad spelling mistake.

Ya I know by this time it can be said that that the faith of the germans was sealed in the Easternfront.

What im trying to prove in my essay is that they should not have lost men as much as they did.

Not sure as to what can be said here. It was not the Germans that deserve credit for incompetance here but the Russians who executed a brilliant plan.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Well after reading "Analysis of deep attack operations Operation Bagration, Belorussian, 22 June-29 August 1944"

It can be argued that the German incompetence caused the decisive soviet victory.

The Germans made quick and wrong decisions to transfer troops around and could have easily spotted the soviet Maskirovka plan if they payed more attention.

They had no workable defensive strategies.

Their reserve system was a failure.

Hitler's order to hold positions caused the destruction of many forces like the LIII Corps.

OKH greatly under estimated soviet numbers.

Not to mention, the Soviets had 4,000 plus tanks and assault guns for the attack. Nothing
Germany could have countered even if they knew the attack was coming there.

They still failed miserbaly...

If they had better plans then they would have saved more troops / tanks.

This always seems to be the scapegoat for the loosing Germans.....

The "quick and wrong" decisions were made based on what the Germans saw, or in this case believed they saw thanks to Soviet diception. Surely if you were facing 3 Soviet tank army's then saw new field kitchens being brought up which were capable of feeding hundreds of thousand of new troops, followed by what seemed like constant movement of large amounts of vehicles and equipment in addition to being constantly harassed by Soviet artillery in order to soften you up, you too would think that this is where the main attack would take place

I believe that a statement which sounded more on the lines of " The Soviet Deception which caused the Germans to make quick and wrongful desicions " may seem more accurate.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Maybe they could have used these:

"Most important of the natural features in the area were the numerous rivers, of which almost all ran north or south. These were the Dnepr, Drut, Berezina, Western Dvina, Svisloch, Ptich, and Neman. All were potential barriers, which unfortunately went unrealized by the defenders."

Operation Bagration

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Yes, the only real thing the Germans could have hoped for was a better defeense. From what I understand they were rather thinly spread out?

The fact that the Germans were expecting an attack on another front did not help with their defenses either. Perhaps the defenses in the south were better.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

Ok I finally picked my final question and POVS.

I cant copy and paste them here because I have to hand it in to turnit.com and if I paste them here my essay will show up as plagiarised.

To do the responsibility of the Stavka through out the whole battle is going to be too hard to do in 4000 words so i decided on the plans and tactics used by the stavka for the operation.

POV1) The deception plan with the help of the incompetence of the OKH

POV2) the fast penetration and encirclement strategies used exploited the incompetent german defenses.

POV3) the planning for the war ; reconnaissance activity and the partisan movements to destroy german rail roads

POV4) The use of the air superiority

POV5) they increased cooperation between the Stavka and the front commanders ; exploited german weaknesses (pursuing the forces)

POV6) The plans were useful but the soviets just had a lot of forces.



any suggestions/ ideas.

Do u think this is narrow and it is suitable for a 4000 word essay.

I have to agree with most of the posts here. I do think that the German high command had something to do with making it truly a disaster. Hitlers "festung Vitebsk" order assured the destruction of the Luftwaffe division there almost to a man. The same went for Bobriusk where 18000 landser were sacrificed. I think that the German high command can be faulted correctly for the faxct that they still had not come around to thinking that the Russian army at that time was not the one they had fought in 1941. They were arrogant.

The Russians completely decieved the Germans, partly due to the stripping of german recon aircraft for other fronts. And from strict camouflage procedure and troop control such as not so much as a nose in the open during the day. Tactical planning played a large role also. The steamroller was well coordinated, the Russians had learned a lot about combined arms. The first day the infantry went forward after a tremendous barrage (3 hours with over 10000 tubes) and they were supported by the new ISU-122s and 152s. They mopped up what was left of the German lines quickly and then the tanks broke through.