ok Soviet experten need a little help and I am going to be relentless in this....

am following up some clams made by NJG 100 Ju 88G-6 crews during December and January of 44-45 and would like to know what was being flown during the night on Soviet night bombings and recon, strafes .... ?
it has been found that the German crews at times just generalized with 2-3 different Soviet types found in their after action reports

any help appreciated by all those committed and if I put this to pen will be gladly given the proper notations of thanks

Alte hase

I knew this was going to get lost in the mainstream of things on this site........so am going to ask hopeful simple questions that someone with Air war expert advice on Soviet craft can give me.

many of the German LW pilots have counted :

Il-4's in their kills, what is the correct Soviet A/c name ?
Li-2 is ?

I know there were DC-3's shot down but what were they called by the Soviets ?

thanks

E ~ time for more searching

just to add to my own confusion or others .......

for December 22/23. 44 I./NJG 5 equipped with Ju 88G-6's, 7 kills against Soviet raiders as they were called. Hauptmann Walter Engel of 3rd staffel shoots down a Li-2 and then I see it crossed out and inserted : PS-84. Walter shoots down another 2 Il-4's then they are crossed out in the texts and DB-3F's inserted, later that night he scores his last Soviet craft a Mitchell which is a B-25 I am aware.

Oberfeldwebel Reitmeyer of 1st staffel shoots down 2 Li-2's and 1 Il-4 with nothing crossed out

you can see my frustration ..........

Good thing of you to ask that when my books are packed in a garage 80 miles from here under a pile of stuff!

At least from memory I can tell you the Li-2 is a Lisunov-2, a C-47 straight copy with different engines.

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ah a live one other than me ........ Za I can wait easily enough for you to retrieve needed books, etc. did not the Li-2 also have an upper turret with a 20mm equivalent mid-way along the fuselage ?

thanks

E ~

I missed this thread earlier Erich. The Ilyushin IL-4 and the DB-3F are the same aircraft with small differences The Russians introduced a new designation system in 1940 and the DB became IL. The aircraft look very similar to the C-47 or LI-2 and it would be easy to misidentify them at night.

The IL-4 looks alot like the Douglas B-18 that was similar to the C-47 and DC-3 aircraft.

Early models of the IL had three 7.65mm ShKAS machine guns. The dorsal turret was manual. Later models had a 12.7mm weapon in the dorsal turret.
Crew was only three and the Russians classifed it as long range.


If you want to add to the confusion the Tupolev SB-2 looks similar to the C-47/IL-4 and the later models had a dorsal turret.

And if you want more then the Ilyushin Il-4 was also know as TsKB-26 or TsKB-30, DB-3, DB-3F, and Il-4. The soviet navy used them also.

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you get plus points for this TA, as this helps me greatly .............I think. Yes there is reference to a DB-3F in docs but as well as Il-4. I am going to assume that in the winter of 44-45 these Soviet a/c were camo'd in winter white even for night raids ?

fine now the Li-2 C-47 pics ?

Mitchell = B-25 a real fast pain in the butt for the LW air defenses.

E ~

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I could not find a web picture of a TU-2 with radial engines but you can see the similarities.

http://www.aviation.ru/Li/Li-2.jpg

These are also know as ANT-40 and ANT-41's++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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pretty plain Jane as most of the Soviet craft, no tail turret again. though no electronic gadgets for the LW to pick up on emmissions as well

disregard the last post as I am trying to eat soup and cut and paste at the same time.

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Here is an ANT-41

On the Li-2 some had dorsal turrets and others did not.

Russian Aviation Page: Trivia

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This is a good site if you want to crunch numbers on the Russian bombers

Soviet level bombers

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One last post on the subject. As you see the Japanese version looks just like the Russian version. I wondered who copied Douglas first ???

Douglas L2D

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thanks again TA for the pic links, what a crazy nightmare I can see it easily enough with most LW views of the butt end of the Soviet a/c, several of them look the same with slight changes to tail that would not even be noticed especially on a moonless night.

there has also been noted to engaging the slow moving bi-planes some of them flown by experienced women - the night witches -

from another forum and a response to my inquiry

PS-84 was the original SOVIET designation for the licence-produced DC-3. "PS" reads "Passazhirskiy Samolet", or "Passenger aircraft". The numerical code "84" was taken from the factory chosen for the series production of the DC-3, or Zavod (Factory) No.84 in Khimki. Moscow (evacuated to Tashkent in October 1941). When the Soviet aircraft were renamed after their General Designers in 1942 the PS-84 could for obvious reasons not be given the name of an American designer, but instead the Chief Engineer of Zavod No.84 Lisunov got this (undeserved) honor. Thus the family tree goes: DC-3 -> PS-84 -> Li-2! In German id documents the bird was apparently called PS-84 throughout the war.

Too bad I did not saw this thread before

I confirm all info provided by Ta

IThe C-47 licence was bought in 1935. Some of them had dorsal turrets, some other did not.

The Japanese version was also licensed to the before the war.

Through the war, the LW pilots often misidentified soviet airplanes, and although the Li-2 was sometimes used as a bomber or even a night bomber, it is very unlikely that they were used as night bombers as late 1944-45.

At the time, the main Soviet twin engined bombers, that could be used as level bombers, were the DB-3, an orginal design put to production in 1936, the Pe-2, and the Tu-2 / Pe-2 and Tu-2 were not night bombers under normal circimstances

At this time, the Sb-2 had been pulled back from front line.

So it leaves the Db-3 as the most probable, the F version being renamed in Il-4 after its designer name (Ilyushin)

After the twin engined Db-3 and Sb-2 had been slaughtered en masse in their attemps to slow down German advance during the 1st few weeks of the war, the VVS decided that they would be only used at night, against operational, but also political targets such as Berlin.

So unless very specific operations, the Il-4 was only operated at night.

My conclusion : if they were night bmbers, they were Il-4, if they were transport/supply planes( which aslo were mostly operated at night by the VVS to avoid interception) they could have been Li-2s

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