Frostbite on the Eastern Front

Sloniksp · #1 (**permalink**) March 20th, 2008, 03:18 AM

Some may find this site of some interest.

Russia At War 1941-1945 Winter

There are links to other sites on the bottom of the page, including Glantz.

Enjoy.

Chuikov64th · #2 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 04:41 AM

Quote:

It is no wonder that thousands of Germans froze to death that winter. By the turn of the year they had suffered about 100,000 cases of frostbite, more than 14,000 of which required amputations. By the end of that terrible winter the number of frostbite victims exceeded a quarter of a million, and more than 90 percent were second- and third-degree cases. To these must be added thousands of cases of pneumonia, influenza, and trenchfoot.

All I can say is that was a terrible price to pay for someones sheer stupidity. I would not have wanted to be a German soldier there, or for that matter a Russian one either. I can't imagine the misery those men went through.

Za Rodinu · #3 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 01:46 PM

Damn! And to think that if they had made a mistake or two less, they surely would have won the war! Or is it me just being sarcastic?

Hufflepuff · #4 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 06:04 PM

Ive read about things like this in John Keegan's books, good post slonskip

Also, in the winter of 1941/42, the German field kitchens ladeled out boiling hot soup to thier men that froze within two minutes (frozen SOLID, not just figuratively cold). Butter also had to be sliced with saws.

Martin Bull · #5 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 06:08 PM

I remember reading in one book ( lost in my memory, I'm afraid ) about the first Russian winter encountered by the Germans. It related how some night-time sentries ( wearing the steel helmet ) would be found dead in the morning - their cranial fluid having frozen.

An image which, for some reason, I found particularly horrifying.

bigfun · #6 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

Damn! And to think that if they had made a mistake or two less, they surely would have won the war! Or is it me just being sarcastic?

now that's what i call a zinger!!!

PzJgr · #7 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 08:05 PM

I recall dinner table talks where my grandfather, when complaining about food, would say that if he could eat frozen potatos and snow with frozen hands, he could eat anything. I remember seeing some of his photos of vehicles with fires underneath them to ensure successful starts.

C.Evans · #8 (**permalink**) March 21st, 2008, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Bull

I remember reading in one book ( lost in my memory, I'm afraid ) about the first Russian winter encountered by the Germans. It related how some night-time sentries ( wearing the steel helmet ) would be found dead in the morning - their cranial fluid having frozen.

An image which, for some reason, I found particularly horrifying.

This reminds me of two different images I saw in two different books. The first book, I cannot recall it's title nor the author but, I remember seeing a large photo of a troop of Cossacks, frozen stiff on horseback. They were in the act of charging a German position when a snap-freeze happened. They were cought our in the middle of an open field. You could easily see icicles hanging off the men, their mounts and equpiment.

The second book I do recall the name of the author. The author was: Roland Gaul-who wrote an excellent 2 volume series about the Battle of the Bulge: the Southern sector. Anyway, one volume was from the German point-of-view, the second was from the American P-o-V. In the American volume, I remember seeing a photo taken of an American Sergeant who was on one knee, with Garand rifle at the ready. You could see where the water was dripping off of him and his rifle. This Gents eyes were frozen open. :-((

Hufflepuff · #9 (**permalink**) March 22nd, 2008, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Bull

I remember reading in one book ( lost in my memory, I'm afraid ) about the first Russian winter encountered by the Germans. It related how some night-time sentries ( wearing the steel helmet ) would be found dead in the morning - their cranial fluid having frozen.

An image which, for some reason, I found particularly horrifying.

I read about the general helmet problems the Germans had at Stalingrad in Antony Beevor's book. It said that the Germans would take thier soccer scarves and wrap them around thier heads, because thier helmets were causing them head-related frostbite and in this case, death.

Keystone Two-Eight · #10 (**permalink**) March 23rd, 2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hufflepuff

I read about the general helmet problems the Germans had at Stalingrad in Antony Beevor's book. It said that the Germans would take thier soccer scarves and wrap them around thier heads, because thier helmets were causing them head-related frostbite and in this case, death.

Have you ever seen the show "20th Century Battlefields"? They did a series of experiments with dummies dressed up as German soldiers and Soviet soldiers, and put them in a deep freezer and simulated the temperatures at Stalingrad. The result of the experiment was that it all came down to insulation. The Germans had their great coats which, whilst being made of wool, still didn't give them much insulation. Compared to the quilted coats the Soviets wore, and their hats instead of helmets, it's no wonder the Russians held out better. Very interesting show if you've never seen it.

They also came to the conclusion that the Soviet weaponry worked better because a little gasoline was added to the gun oil to keep it fluid, as opposed to the straight oil the Germans used which froze up.

Hufflepuff · #11 (**permalink**) March 23rd, 2008, 08:51 PM

I have heard of that show. Didn't they also do a test to see whether the British or French uniforms used at Waterloo caused more heat stroke with a treadmill and a heart rate monitor?

I haven't seen the episode you are talking about, however. Sounds cool though.

Chuikov64th · #12 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

They also came to the conclusion that the Soviet weaponry worked better because a little gasoline was added to the gun oil to keep it fluid, as opposed to the straight oil the Germans used which froze up.

They also used sunflower oil, it was plentiful (they grow them by the mile) and it did not congeal in extreme weather.

I read a book called "Fighting in Hell" I can't remember who wrote it but it goes into great detail about many aspects of the war. Highly recommended reading.

Za Rodinu · #13 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keystone Two-Eight

Have you ever seen the show "20th Century Battlefields"? They did a series of experiments with dummies dressed up as German soldiers and Soviet soldiers, and put them in a deep freezer and simulated the temperatures at Stalingrad. ... Very interesting show if you've never seen it.

On a side note, you're lucky this was on Discovery Channel or Mythbusters or whatever; if it were a German experiment they wouldn't be using dummies but prisioners or KZ inmates. See the experiments of Herr Doktor Sigmund Rascher, for instance.

Medical Experiments performed at Dachau by Dr. Sigmund Rascher for the Luftwaffe
Medical Experiments of the Holocaust and Nazi Medicine
The Mazal Library

More people of the same ilk:
Nazi Doctors

Sloniksp · #14 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 03:53 PM

Thanks for the commetns guys, im trying to locate total numbers of frostbite victims for both sides on the Ost Front.

Any info on the subject would be greatly appreciated and hopefully we can erradicate certain myths.

Keystone Two-Eight · #15 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

Thanks for the commetns guys, im trying to locate total numbers of frostbite victims for both sides on the Ost Front.

Any info would on the subject would be greatly appreciated and hopefully we can erradicate certain myths.

Hey Sloniksp,
Heres a couple I found on a quick google search for ya.

An overview of the harsh weather conditions on the eastern front ...

In the Fire of the Eastern Front: The Experiences of a Dutch

Erich · #16 (**permalink**) March 24th, 2008, 06:17 PM

so Slon what do you want to know ? I've lived and breathed in -40F below and will not mention where.

two friend served on the Ost front, both during the whole war, I have some pretty grim stories from both of them, one of the brothers was on his way to Moscow, and general winter did the Wehrmacht in as he can testify but the Soviets really did not have it any better in his eyes, true the Heer was short on heavy winter wear but the dead Russians they found were no better equipped than them. they had to continually build fires where they could find any wood under there AFV's and trucks to get them mobil.
Weapons jammed non-stop due to freezing there was an acute shortage of grease and oil, and then what almost everyone forgets was the spring thaw of the sheer weight of fighting daily the abundance of mud

Sloniksp · #17 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 08:27 PM

Thanks guys.....

Im also trying to find the numbers of Red Army frostbite victims.

Erich · #18 (**permalink**) March 25th, 2008, 09:08 PM

by the way Slon I still carry the effects of frostbite on two toes in miserable well below 30F cold, so I can somewhat relate, the only difference is that that thread embosse's over 60 years ago

Chuikov64th · #19 (**permalink**) April 9th, 2008, 02:47 AM

Erich. In Gomel I went for a walk in what I believe was -30C weather. I was well dressed with a heavy leather jacket and jeans and sweat pants shoes cap and gloves ect. After about 1/2 hr it seemed to be getting to my legs and hands. My face was numb even with the scarf. There was a wind but not really bad. I don't think a person in light cloths would last long in that.