You are right:Red army (included air force and navy):june 1941 :5.7 millions(=3% of the population) from june to september they send to the front:2.5 millions from september to december:3 millions .The Germans could never compete with that.

While having numbers, the Russians were not fully mobilized. Constant shortages were quite evident. The Red Army was only in the process of re mobilizing. Officers being trained, new tanks being built, weapons being supplied and numbers being filled. Remember that when war broke out, many divisions were under manned by as much as 30-40 percent.

Many historians today such as Glantz and Erickson claim that it was simple luck that Hitler attacked when he did and the success which followed. Had Germany attacked one year later or even 3 years earlier, she would have been met with a formidable adversary not the rag-tag group in 1941.

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The war against Russia will be such that it cannot be conducted in a knightly fashion. This struggle is one of ideologies and racial differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented, unmerciful and unrelenting harshness. -Adolf Hitler

1 - The poor road system surely slowed the German forces down in 1941, compared to their lightning advances in Western Europe the previous year. Even worse, the Russians used a different railway track gauge, and all German railway cars had to stop at the frontier to have their axles changed. German tactics, logistics, supply, and equipment were designed for a short war of the kind fought by them in 1940. They were at a severe handicap when ordered to invade Russia but overcame it, for a while.

As the war ground on into 1942, German lines of communication became longer while the Soviet's became shorter. Towards the end of the war, the situation was reversed - the reason why it took almost two years after the Germans were clearly beaten (failure of Operation Citadel offensive in July, 1943) for the Nazis to be defeated.

2. Hitler and Keitel's over-optimism that the war would be over before winter 1941 led to the winter disaster of thousands of frozen German troops. Since the war would be over, Hitler and Keitel saw no need to ship arctic clothing to the troops when amuunition could be shipped instead. Many brave German troops paid for this oversight with their lives.

The leaders of the luftwaffe by contrast, held no such illusions. Luftwaffe Feldmarschall Erhard Milch knew that the war would certainly drag through the winter, and accordingly ordered winter clothing for luftwaffe personell shipped in time so that few luftwaffe airmen froze to death in the artic Russian winter, due to lack of proper clothing .

3. After the failure of operation Typhoon (German offensive on Moscow)in December 1941, Hitler effectively took over all command of the German armed forces. Since he was not entirely daft (that would come much later), Hitler still would often heed the advice of his Generals. But more often he listened to their expert opinions and then simply took his own council. This was unfortunate for Germany - since no one in Germany at the time, could tell Hitler that as a former Corporal, with no formal staff training or command experience, he was the very last person who should have been supreme commander. It would take millions of German lives to prove it, because almost all the failures from that point forward, (Stalingrad, Kursk, D-day, you name it) can be laid squarely at Hitler's feet.

4. By 1943, Germans were fighting on the eastern front (almost 200 divisions employed there alone), fighting another battle against a partisan army in their rear, fighting a defensive battle in the air over Germany and the occupied nations against the full strategic bombing might of the Air Forces of the USA and England, occupying the whole of continental Western Europe, and fighting the Americans and the British in North Africa, then Sicily, then Italy. This would be a massive chore for the USA with much more population and resources, let alone the smaller nation of Germany with only 60 million people and very limited resources (particularly fuel).

Almost every German Field Marshall and General officer recognized at this time that Hitler had indeed committed the German forces to much more than they were capable of but for most, there was nothing to be done about it - since Germany's destiny, on every front and in Germany itself, lay entirely in the hands of der Fuehrer.

IMO it's was not just logistics, let's not forget the Germans in a sense "beat" the Russians in WW1 despite fighting a multiple fronts war then as well so beating the USSR would not seem impossible to a 1941 observer as Germany could concentrate East much better than it could have in WW1.
But the Kaiser and his advisors did a much better job in separating the people from the leadership than Hitler was capable of, IMO the root of the German defeat East lies as much in racist policies and lack of focus as in poor logistics.

I completely agree with you regarding the racist and cruel policies that the germans employed towards the people on the eastern front. One has to wonder sometimes what hitler was more worried about....the military side of the war or the extermination of other races...

We all know that even in the dying months of the riech he diverted much needed supplies or had them wait on the side while train loads of jews were still being sent to their deaths.

Maybe some points:
1)The poor road system was important,but there is another point :there was not enough production to compensate the losses :ex:for the 3,7 cm PAK:in august 1941roduction 50-losses 817
2)Hitler's and Keitel's over-optimism that the war would be over before the winter:I should qualify their attitude as realism:the war had to be over before the winter,otherwise they would be in big trouble . Btw:was it possible to send winter clothing for 3000000 men ?The LW strength was much smaller.About the figures of frost-bite:I have seen a figure of 120000(of whom 14000 severe) what is 4 % "only"
3)Hitler taking over command:in fact since june he commanded already the operations on the east front
4) I think 200 divisions on the east front is exagerated . Btw:60000000inhabitants for Germany? Probably a typo:it should be 80 millions . Cheers

I'd say the things that helped the Germans helped with their defeat. Tigers, the supposed world beating superweapons, slowed down many general's advances until they were delivered. Such was the case at the battle of Kursk, where the Germans gave the Soviets time to prepare. Why? Because Hitler ordered him to wait until Tigers were delivered to the front lines. Also, the initial success of Barbarossa may have convinced the Germans that this would be a cakewalk. You really can't blame them, as it was a great success. So if only the Germans lost a little more XD.

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To the German Commander-- Nuts.

-- The American Commander

The dying months of the reich : if you mean 1945 ,then your statement is not wright:the extermination camps were already overrun by the Soviets,and the "supply" of Jews was exhausted .

Odd. Death camps were found and liberated by Red Army troops well into 1945. Auschwitz-Birkenau for example was liberated during Vistula-Oder Offensive, and there were literally tens of thousands of camps both in and out of Germany. I don't know to what extent transportation capacity was still used by the camps at 1945, but I will not be surprised if people were still being killed to the very end.

Because Germany totally underestimated Russia. They thought that they could just keep beating them, and while they did destroy two thirds of the original Russian army at the start of Operation Barbarossa, they did not bother to hit factories or the Russian industry, so the Russians re built.

Then they attacked the Germans with millions of men and newly made tanks, and the Germans did not have enough men to hold the Russians back. Stalingrad was a big German defeat, and depleted their manpower greatly. At Kursk the Germans made an attack, but it was too late. The Russians had their industry going now, and even if they won Kursk (which they didn't), the Russians would have just attacked again and again and again...and with the Germans occupied in other theatres then they would never have got the manpower. I don't think that Kursk was a bad idea though. It could have worked, and the Germans fought well, but the Russians were able to replensih their losses, while the Germans couldn't.

The Germans also spread themselves to thin. Their Blitzkrieg tactic worked well, but in the end they did not have enough man power to keep attacking the Russians and were beaten back. The Germans maybe could have fought the Russians to a draw if they were not fighting in Africa and Europe, but I think that the Red Armys recources were massive, while the Germans had only limited recources.

(Going a bit off the question now, but I shall say it anyway): Hitler might have forstalled the inevitable attack by Russia by in 1944 instad of attacking the Americans in the Ardennes, he could have sent these last top notch tank reserves and lanced an assult on the Russians, or used them as defense. Instead they were used in an assult, which even if it had prevailed, would only capture maybe Antwerp, and the Allies would just attack and capture it again. So wether the Battle of the Bulge suceeded or not, Hitlers tanks would have been destroyed for little or no reason. However if he has used them on the Russian front for some sort of well planned attack, he could have inflicted heavy losses on the Russians which would have raised German morale and humiliated the Russians.

EDIT: Also, Hitler should have stopped using thousands of troops to kill Jews etc in the Concentration camps, and used them all not he Russian front. He did not, and so many of the German troops (S.S mostly) were not fighting, but killing off innocent lives for no reason.

That is how I see it.

My opinion:

1- First and foremost: Subestimation of the Soviet Military capabilities. The nazis thought that their most powerfull enemies were the western allies, but in fact the soviet union was much more powerfull than even Stalin thought possible. Resisting unimaginable causalities and producing more tanks and rifles than the US (with only 10-15% of the industrial base of the latter).

2- Other fronts. The URSS managed to survive and attack by 65% of the nazi armed forces, but what about 100% (maybe more since without other fronts we don't have the bombing problem, with means more weapons and manpower*)? That fact that the germans thought that they could defeat the soviets with 65% of their army is related to point 1.

3- Lend-Lease supplies. Ammounted to 100 billion rubles, about 20% of the total war expenditures of the country (lend lease paid 25% of the military expenditures of the URSS in 1943 and 1944). Without the 400.000 trucks send to them they probably wouldn't be able to take the initiative.

4- Subestimation of the weather problems and the size of the country. If the URSS was of the size of France they would have been defeated in a few months. The supply system wasn't adapted to handle "deep war" in a large country.

* 2 million men were allocated to clean up and rebuild bombed areas in 1944. The anglo-american bombing effort produced a drain in manpower second only to the eastern front.

Interesting, but that idea of the Ardennes attack was to push on the weakest point of the allies, the western front. If the attack defeated the allied forces, they would suffer a serious blow and the idea was to make them concede to a conditional peace, not a unconditional surrender. However, the germans underestimated the size of the western allied forces, numbering 5 million strong (against only around 1.2 million men!). The soviet front was a massive 6.5 million men wall, impossible to defeat. The fact was that at the time germany was finished, and didn't have the capabilities to fight against 12 million soldiers. The most rational allocation of forces at the time was to full defensive positions, that way they could prolong the war about 1-2 months (with more death civilians by bombing!).

The URSS was spending a larger fraction of their resources on military stuff in 1941 before the invasion than the germans were in 1939, before the war. However, the Russians didn't think they were unprepared at the time. In fact they thought the had the most powerfull armed forces in the world.

True, but the Germans should have known that the Allies would have never stopped once they were that close to Germany. if it were me, I would rather use the tanks in reserve for when one side broke through there would be armor to try to hold them off if necessary.

2-There were no 65% of the German armed forces in the east :maximum was some 3 million
4-The Germans did not subestimate the weather problems and the size of the country :they knew how big the SU was and they gambled to be able to defeat the SU before the winter .
3-LL is overestimated ;the SU was not dependent on trucks,they were dependent on horses and railways ;they had no motorised army and no motorised army was able to operate in the east .

2- In 1941 the german army consisted of 5.5 million men. They attacked the URSS with 3.35 million men (note that not all of the 5.5 million men were ready for the front). Second to glantz, the german army allocated these proportions to the eastern front:

1941 - 69%
1942 - 79%
1943 - 63%
1944 - 62%

3- LL consisted of 98 billion rubles of war materials. That made the difference: In 1943 the soviets were spending 58% of their income on the war. But, without the lend lease, they would have to spend 73%, a unsustainable war effort. In 1942 LL was important to, with lend lease the soviet union was spending 66% of their income in the war, but without LL the military expenditures would consist of 76%. Overall, lend-lease supplies paid 15-20% of the war for the soviet union.

If you mean army and not Wehrmacht,you are right for 1941 ,but for 1942 your figure is much to high!! The German strength in the East in 1942 was under 3 million ,you figure should mean an army strength ol less than 4 million .The same for 1943 :fieldarmy (without reserve army ):5.4 ,in the East :2.6
For LL :I have to pass today,but I think that LL has been debated on this forumand that the conclusion is that the importance was much less .
Cheers