.50cals for sherman tank cuppolas..?

Did they always have .50 cals for sherman tanks cuppolas or did they always use .30cal and switch over to .50s?

Or did they use half and half?

I'm having trouble finding old pictures of tanks besides the M-10, that have .50s instead of .30s.

In another words all the old pictures of sherman tanks in Normandy from June to July of 1944, I can see only .30cal mgs on top of the shermans.

 

5 seconds Google image search & here's one with a .50






Sherman tanks of the Royal Marines Armoured Support Group, Normandy, 13 June 1944.


THE BRITISH ARMY IN THE NORMANDY CAMPAIGN 1944. © IWM (B 5456)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

desert Sherman with a .50

http://ww2photo.se/tanks/gb/utland/07296.jpg

http://www.precision-panzer.moonfruit.com/communities/9/004/006/621/409/images/4552665425.jpg

and..

http://warwickshire-yeomanry-museum.co.uk/images/WKY%20-%20Shermans.gif

 

The pictures even though neat, do not answer my question..
Talking about American stuff not British as well..

 

You never mentioned the US in post #1

I answered this bit of your query.
In another words all the old pictures of sherman tanks in Normandy from June to July of 1944, I can see only .30cal mgs on top of the shermans.

 

Did any Shermans have cupolas during WWII? The picture above certainly doesn't nor do the other two links pictures that I followed. My impression is that the 50 cal was standard for the pintel mount and was considered an AA gun at least in some references. US forces being what they were I would be surprised if at some point someone didn't put a 30 cal up there though.

 

My guess would be that each tank, although capapble of mounting either a .50 or .30, would be equipped differently depending on it's assignment within the element. Seems as though I have also seen pictures of shermans with both .50 and .30 mounted at the same time on pintels on the cupola.

To find the answer you would need to locate a "TO & E" ( Table of Organization & Equipment) for a specific unit during the time you are interested in.

 

From what I've read US units often considered TO&E's more as guidelines than as requirements. For instance many squads had added an extra BAR before that became standard. Likewise MG's seen as desirable additions, especially by motorized or armored units. It may depend on whether the originator of this thread is looking for an official answer or what was the actual case.

 

I've heard accounts of American tankers after arriving in Normandy who removed the 50 cal entirely and left it on the side of the road. Mainly because while driving it would occasionally bounce and turn towards the front of the tank blocking the assistant drivers hatch from opening preventing quick egress. One incident where after firing the bolt wasn't fully pulled back leaving a round inside a hot barrel. This cooked off and shot the assistant driver in the back of the head when his head was sticking out the smaller hatch.

 

My experience has been just the opposite; every photo, drawing, or description I've seen of Shermans or M-10s has a .50 as the turret top gun. Sometimes there was a .30 in addition, probably a field modification (also seen in the movie Fury). It mainly reflects the need for close-in defense against infantry with weapons like Panzerfausts and could be manned by the loader when not involved in engaging with the main gun. Many modern tanks like the M1 have a 7.62mm on the loader's hatch.

Although the .50 was (and is) useful in many roles, it was primarily intended as an anti-aircraft weapon. Most of the time when it appears in a unit TO&E or on a vehicle it's for that purpose, like on top of tank turrets or truck cabs.

Another field mod I've read of was putting a .50 in place of the .30 hull machine gun. It was not very widespread, and I don't know if there was a specific reason or just a crewmens' preference for the bigger gun.

 

I am with Carronade on this one. Without looking my first thought is all I recall had 50's on pintels. then hit Google images and you can look at M-4s for quite awhile. The majority have 50's, some 30's and as Carrondate points out that nowe most famous Sherman "Fury" had both....is that Hollywood, I have never seen both on a Sherman but no doubt field modifications would have produced a few.

I am also with lwd on cupolas, I do not believe they existed in WW2 on Sherman's. My definition, which may be wrong, is a cupola is a raised armored circula mound fitted with glassed vision ports, well early ones did not have glass and modern ones have prisms, for the tank commander to see while protected. Israelis added a few to some of their M50-51 Super Shermans long after WW2.

Gaines

 

All the late war 76mm-armed T23 Turret-mounted Medium Tank M4-series had the "vision cupola" as did most of the 105mm-armed M4-series. The earlier cupola was the "split-hatch" type which used a periscope.

The .50 caliber was occasionally fitted as the co-ax with some jiggering. I don't think I have ever seen it as a BOW gun.

 

thanks guys I guess shermans had the .50s right off the beaches sorry, I didn't mean cuppola but just the standard commanders hatch, but you got that anyways

 

It's ok to be wrong. Indeed most of the people here are quite good about correcting errors and only get irritated if you keep insisting that fallacies are in fact truths. I wasn't completely sure about the cupola thing but figured we have enough experts that we'd get the right info before long. Along similar lines the 37mm on the M3 is usually stated to be in a turret rather than a cupola. Would both be accurate? or not?

 

Thanks, Rich, what I like about this place, always learning. IO had forgotten about the T 23 turret and it's distinct shape but never even knew the io5's had one. The evolution of the shern is rather complex and rather fascinating, especially what the Israelis did to them. Has any tank chassis ever had so many engine options !

I would not have thought a M-2 could be fitted as the co-ax position. I remember the early Centurians had a 20mm co-ax used as a ranging piece . .

Field modifications as a result of combat experience on all tanks would make an interesting book..

Gaines

 

Assuming you mean the M3 medium, the Lee version had the 37mm in a turret?? with a .30 on top of that in a cupola??

 

Yes, the Lees with the cupola looked a bit like a Japanese battleship

 

M3 Lee. 37mm M3 is in a fully traversing turret. On top of that is a cupola. But the gun mounted looks more like a .30 than a .50. The US Lee's had the cupola for a while. I don't know how long. The British Grant had the Lee turret replaced with a larger turret without the cupola that noticeably reduced the silhouette of the tank.



Picture from AFVDB.

And I just realized this is a cast hull M3.

 

Cupola is the correct nomenclature, you were not incorrect and as RichTO90 pointed out there were at least two primary types.

Here's a link with more details:
http://the.shadock.free.fr//sherman_minutia/cupolas/cupolas.html

 

Lots of good Sherman tank info on the site. Here's the main page:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/