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A British/Welsh Regiment's bad day!

Discussion in 'Military History' started by C.Evans, Feb 4, 2004.

  1. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    On watching Zulu played on AMC last night, I thought I would post a little something to remember those guys.

    You of course know that most of the 1st btn of the 24th Regimetn of Foot was kilkled at Islandulwana. This also included at least one Company from the 2nd Btn.

    More members of the 2nd Btn were the chaps that fought at Roarke's Drift on: January 22/23 1879.

    This battle produced no less than 11 Victoria Crosses. The men who won the Victoria Cross are:

    Corporal Friederich C. Schiess, Natal Native Contingent. His [​IMG] award was on: November 29/1879.

    Corporal W.W. Allen, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. His [​IMG] award was awarded on: May 2/1879.

    Leftenant Gonville Bromhead 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot & 2nd in Command at Roarke's Drift. His award was given on: May 2/1879.

    Leftenant J.R.M. Chard, Royal Engineers 1st Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot & Officer Commanding at Roarke's Drift. Recieved his award on: May 2/1879.

    J.L. Dalton A/Assistant Commissariat Commissariat & Transport Department. [​IMG] awarded on: November 18/1879.

    Private F. Hitch, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. His [​IMG] award was presented on: May 2/1879.

    Private A. Henry Hook, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. He was awarded his [​IMG] on: May 2/1879.

    Private R. Jones, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. He recieved his award on: May 2/1879.

    Private W. Jones, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. Became a holder of the [​IMG] on: May 2/1879.

    Surgeon Major J.H. Reynolds, Army Medical Department. Recieved his [​IMG] on: June 17/1879.

    Private John Williams, 2nd Btn, 24th Regiment of Foot. [​IMG] awarded on: May 2/1879.

    When this many of a nation's highest award for valor are awarded, you know they definately had a tough day.

    My hat is off to the remembrance of all of these men.
     
  2. SignalCorp

    SignalCorp Member

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/empire/zulu_01.shtml

    Funny, I've posted this link twice today!

    As much as Rorkes Drift was an impressive defence against an overwhelming enemy, there are some very interesting circumstances that surround the whole affair, more specifically Isandlwana and the awarding of the large number of VC's.

    I direct your attention to the part about the two officers VC's and the late award to Commissary Dalton.

    Shady deals indeed, Lord Chelmsford was a dirty dog of the utmost order! [​IMG]
     
  3. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Thanks for the link. I had never seen such a turn-around on somehting about the Queen and Lord Chelmsford.

    Talk about CYA--this article makes it seem that the Lord invented it.

    I also think that there was an eror of sorts or a purposeful omission from the artice that is proven fact.

    It is well-known that in the British Military of those times--that in the case of running out of ammo is concerned. This was due to very strict rules on allotment.

    When one Company or Battalion ran oput of ammo--they tried to borrow some and from what I understand--the QM they tried to get it from basically refused to doll it out inspite of the circumstances at hand.

    Incredable as it seems, I have read more in the past of this happening in the British Army. Apparently in some cases--ammo was not shared for some reason and apparently ammo needed on that day at Isandulwana (correct spelling) apparently there was some mixup or flat out refusal on the QM's part--to pass out ammo.

    That artical may be true, but is definately biased.
     
  4. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Carl,
    British tv did a documentary on Isandulwana last year, and discovered a few interesting facts.
    1)There was no refusal to hand out ammo, or shortage therof. What did happen was that the skirmish lines were overstretched, unable to provide mutual support, and were simply outpaced by the attacker's speed.
    2) They discovered that the zulu troops were given a "tonic" before the battle. They asked a modern zulu herbal practitioner to recreate this according to original recipes, then analysed.
    Get this. This stuff was full of cannabis, with the sedative constituent missing.The other constituent-the one that causes hyperactivity-was off the scale! It was SO potent, they wouldn't even discuss the exact proportion of each on camera.
    Not saying that the zulu warriors were anything but brave, but they were so hyped on this stuff the British couldn't have stopped them with machine guns. Survivor accounts were analysed which described the zulus as being full of ferocity and unstoppable, which would certainly tie in.
    All this was compounded by British arrogance and underestimation of the threat, of course-the main reason for the cover-up afterwards.

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  5. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi Gordon, your explanation makes perfet sense and I do not doubt it. I take it that all I have read in the past must be almost nothing but error.

    The only thing that really got to me was that by reading that other article--in mu humble opinion, it meant to me that they were knocking down the British as the brave tough soldiers that they were. Also, I do not discount the toughness and bravery of the Zulu Warriors either.

    The thing about not sharing ammo was somthing I have read in a few publications such as Military History in an issue some almost 20 years ago. I have read a few books on the subject but cannot be positive as to their exact titles.

    At any rate, the thing with the passing out of ammo that I meant is, that it was finally passed out but--probably too late to do any good.

    Apparently this is one of those errors that keeps getting spread around from book to book. This is akin to calling Generalfeldmarschall Friedrich Paulus by giving him a "von" for his name as well as the "sniper duel" that never happened at Stalingrad between a real sniper(Zaitsev) and the fictitional German sniper (Maj Konigs)
     
  6. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Carl,
    I know what you mean.The errors seem to outweigh the facts in this case.
    I wouldn't say ALL previous accounts are wrong, but probably just need to be read with caution.
    I dare say someone will contradict the tv doc version in a couple of years time. ;)

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  7. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    Well Flash now I’m disagreeing. The 24th fought to their deaths in hollow squares with bayonets, devoid of ammunition – which they could not reach to replenish.

    Durnford, who at this point only commanded two mounted troops, the rocket battery and one infantry company (@ 500 men), went off onto the plateau chasing perceived pockets of Zulus and thereby depleted the small force of the main camp (1’200). He eventually had to fight his was back and, having only the ammunition the men carried, eventually ran out. The riders sent back to the main camp couldn’t find their own supply wagons because their main force was away in force to the south and south east, with, their supply wagons. Perhaps a tough call, perhaps an odd call with hind-sight, but not incomprehensible that the Commissars were reticent to give other units ammo away?

    ” This stuff was full of cannabis, with the sedative constituent missing. The other constituent-the one that causes hyperactivity-was off the scale!”
    ????????? Is this some unknown form of Cannabis??? :confused: ??? If the Zulus were stoned, they wouldn’t be hyper active, they would have been laying around saying ”Far out man, too much” and moving in slow motion. :cool: I've no doubt they were off on their usual mix of jungle juice, but no more or less than usual and the same at other battles, where it clearly did not help them!

    They were probably out of their skulls at Omdurman, and boy, did that not help them one iota! (Way to go Macdonald [​IMG])

    And, when they were sneaking up in waves, whenever the infantry fired they went to ground, not charge screaming into the bullets???

    To have stood a chance the base camp of 1’700 needed to appreciate they were going to be attacked by over 20’000 Zulus, that’s at least 12 to 1. At least then they would have had the opportunity to deploy their defences accordingly. The outcome may have been no different, but…

    And, as this thread is about the Drift, a few unimportant but interesting points:

    “The Welsh connection had, by 1879, led to a rather higher proportion of Welshman in the ranks than was common elsewhere. Nevertheless, even the most optimistic search of the regimental roll can find only 19 men of B Company, 2/24th, with any sort of Welsh connection - out of a total strength of more than 80. Of course, there were detachments of numerous other units - including Colonial Volunteers - present at the battle, making a total garrison of about 145. So the Welsh contingent comprised no more than 15% of the total.
    And no-one, I'm sorry to say, sang Men of Harlech; the regimental march in 1879 was The Warwickshire Lads”

    “It is a commonly held belief that after the Battle of Isandhlwana, the Zulu's removed the Martini-Henry rifles from the bodies of the dead British soldiers and took them to Rorke's Drift. It was here, they say, that the Zulus used the British Army's own rifle against it's own men. Again, the primary source for this myth is the film 'Zulu'.
    This, put simply, could not have happened as it was impossible for the Zulu regiments attacking Rorke's Drift to have used Martini-Henrys for the simple reason that they had formed the reserve at Isandlwana; they did not take part in the attack, and certainly did not have time to loot any rifles there before advancing on Rorke's Drift.”


    No.9
     
  8. SignalCorp

    SignalCorp Member

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    http://www.kwazulu.co.uk/home.html

    A site which mostly confirms what has been said with a few interesting notes comparing the film 'Zulu!' with actual events.

    I also remember seeing that documentary about the Jungle Juice that the zulus were on and being similarly sceptical.

    You never know though, Zulu chemists in the 19th century inventing some kind of 'go-fasta' Um Bongo? ;)
     
  9. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    No9,

    You're what!? Bloody cheek! :D
    Apparently, both chemicals are always present, but the one that causes hyperactivity is usually suppressed to the point of being barely detectable. Should have said Cannabinoid, or whatever the technical term is. The prog actually showed it being distilled from native plants in which it's naturally found. Apparently the purification process is what determines which one you end up with. Feel free to correct me on that, I'm not a chemist and I've never tried the stuff!
    Sigs, there's evidence of Neolithic Europeans using narcotic substances 4000 years ago, so why not zulus 120?
    There's no archaeological evidence of hollow square formations-all the cartridge cases found in recent years have been consistent with an extended skirmish line, not a concentration of troops. Same with the marker cairns. Didn't know the Fuzzy-Wuzzies at Omdurman were actually zulus, btw! [​IMG]
    Anyway, doesn't detract from the bravery on both sides of course. Usual story of a comedy of errors being compounded by factors that normally wouldn't have mattered too much.

    Regards,
    Gordon

    [ 06. February 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]
     
  10. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Thanks for all the info guys and the links. It's nice to know that some Europeans help keep things in perspective. ;)

    This "BLOODY YANK" has now been corrected as to some of the different aspects of this famous fight. ;)

    All of you earned: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Bloody Colonials.......can always rely on you lot to cause an argument! :D ;) [​IMG]

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    :D Cheers Mate! ;)
     
  13. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    1. Grow it, ripen it, pick it, dry it, shred it, roll it with Golden Virginia, light it.
    So, you’re saying that because 20’000 screaming Umbongos didn’t have any ready-rubbed they freaked out instead of chilling out? This should be easy to verify, just check Rizla’s South African exports for 1879? ;)

    2. Or, they went their own way and started to brew it? What, 20’000 pints? How can a whole nation act like ‘kin maniacs who can’t feel a smack in the face just because they’ve have a drink?
    [​IMG]
    OK, so you may have a point there? :confused:

    3. ” Sigs, there's evidence of Neolithic Europeans using narcotic substances 4000 years ago, so why not Zulu’s 120?”
    We know that, why do you think it was called “The Stoned Age”? :D

    4. ” There's no archaeological evidence of hollow square formations-all the cartridge cases found in recent years have been consistent with an extended skirmish line, not a concentration of troops.”
    And exactly what was my statement? By any chance it wouldn’t have been: ” The 24th fought to their deaths in hollow squares with bayonets, devoid of ammunition”. At the risk of being pedantic, this does not say they never started in line and had ammunition which they fired. Rather it’s saying that, when the Zulu’s started to close all around them and were reaching the line in several places, and, the ammunition they could reach was expended, the line parted in several places and the men retired to squares and fought with their bayonets for as long as possible.

    5. ” Didn't know the Fuzzy-Wuzzies at Omdurman were actually zulus, btw! “
    42nd Camberwell Volunteers of the 10th Ras Division. :rolleyes:

    No.9

    [ 06. February 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]
     
  14. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    ok,
    but there would be concentrations of tunic buttons etc, all in one place. And why are there cairns marking the spots bodies were found, all over the place all the way back to the river?
    If these guys all fought to the death in the one spot:
    a) it contradicts eyewitness testimonies of the troops trying to flee to safety.
    b)all the bodies would have been in one place
    The battleground reminds me of the Little Big Horn-there were bodies found over a wide area, when they were all supposed to have died on this little rise.
    Anyway, the drug theory wasn't mine-I did say I wasn't a chemist!

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  15. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    No because I have not as yet said or implied that all forces made one large square have I? In the first place I’m referring to the 24th and secondly I’ve said when the line was breaking up and the bullets in their pouches and boxes at their feet was gone (assuming they still found time to reload), in the groups they found themselves in they formed square or, if you wish, went back-to-back because they were being attacked from all sides.

    [​IMG]

    How many bones were found? Where were they located? How do you know the cairns don’t represent all or some of the squares? Who said the Zulus didn’t move the bodies about and pile them up? What reports about men running (as if there was anywhere to run to) – does this refer to the men trying to fight their way back to the main body or perhaps the attempt to save the few cannon? :confused:

    Re Little Big Horn (which many years ago I did a serious study on), the only idea of there supposed to have been a stand on a hill is in the artists impressions and the press. The actual military report had the men scattered all over and the Indians later interviewed said exactly the same? What the ‘bones and bullets’ survey did show (and I have a limited edition copy of the report) was (a) the attempt of some men to escape down a gully where they were seen and shot, and (b) elements of Custer's 7th did cross the river and fired on the village from that side. ;)

    On the Zulu drugs, it’s fact the Zulus have no written history so its all hand-me-down fable and supposition. Other than this jungle juice, they are known to have used a hallucinogenic and an anaesthetic at various times in their past. What if anything was used at Isandlwana is pure speculation and conjecture. [​IMG]

    I say; “so what the f**k?” OK, tell you what, you take a tote of all three ‘magic’ wonders, then choose between having a .402 slug through your cranium or 18” of Sheffield up your jacksie, then we’ll discuss how much the ‘magic’ helped. Fair? :eek: :D

    No.9
     
  16. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    Well,
    You yourself stated that the zulus outnumbered the British 12:1, so apparently the sight of Sheffield cold steel and .402 slugs didn't worry them THAT much.
    How do you know the cairns do represent squares? You stated yourself that the zulus may have moved the bodies around (highly unlikely IMHO), so you can't have the argument both ways.
    In August 2000 a team from the Archaeology department of Glasgow University started a five year study of the battlefield. One of the first things they discovered was that the amount of spent cartridge cases and ammo box remains proved there was NO shortage of ammo, regardless to the history books. They also discovered that the skirmish line was a LOT further forward than previously thought.
    You also can't dismiss oral traditions as mumbo-jumbo out of hand. Science dismissed the claims made by the Dogon tribe of west Africa that Sirius was two stars. Someone spent time around them studying their traditions, came back and did some astronomical research and discovered that the Dogon were right: Sirius is actually a double star ( A & B). No-one can explain HOW they knew it, but they were right.
    Are you telling me that when an anthropologist goes to a primitive tribe in New Guinea or the Amazon, he's wasting his time collecting their oral traditions to form a picture of their society because it's all just "mumbo-jumbo"? How else are non-literate societies supposed to hand down histories and traditions?
    And why did the British army start using large calibre personal weapons? Because it was the only way they could stop frenzied charges by native forces who weren't afraid of either the British OR dying.......


    Regards,
    gordon

    [ 07. February 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]
     
  17. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    The sight of men with rifles, or come to that in the face of cannon, did not deter a lot of forces, Zulu or otherwise, else many engagements over the years would not have taken place, would they? Chief Shaka is credited with originating and developing many Zulu tactics, but, his successors do not appear to have been as smart as he was and did little to change these when facing the arms and tactics of the British. i.e. They continued to fight ‘Zulu’ style, buffalo head and in numbers. If they, the chief, was concerned about losing his men, for one thing they could have attacked at night? ;)

    Hollow Square was a very well established and practiced British tactic. Developed as a progression from the phalanx, then ‘push pike’, it provided a concentration of firepower originally with the rear lines loading weapons for the front lines till the advent where the lines could suitably load for themselves. It remained an excellent practice in the open field for receiving cavalry and for lightly armed forces like Zulus. It was not good against forces equally armed or using cannon as the British understood shortly after when fighting the Boers. The officer left commanding the base camp was a novice, hence it is totally logical to take it that, his thinking and practice would have been to ‘go by the book’ in the absence of personal experience. As I pointed out before, he could not have known he was being attacked by over 20’000 Zulu and a skirmish line, by the book, was not an unprecedented order. But, when the Zulus were closing and from all sides, neither would have been the order to form square.

    [​IMG]
    Isandlwana

    I haven’t said there was no ammunition, they had supply wagons with them didn’t they? The problem I would say, was in keeping the men supplied wherever they found themselves fighting! Form Square seems logically to have been the last order and probably in desperation as a skirmish line could not have held against a mass charge. The nature of a skirmish line means it is well forward of the base and therefore not near the supply wagons. I don’t for a moment imagine the order was to go and form square around a supply wagon because I don’t imagine there was time for one thing. The idea would have been self preservation and as a square the men would have stood a better chance with their bayonets than standing in the field as a bunch of individuals where they were open to being speared from behind.

    I am familiar with the Ian Knight survey and also that some recognised historians disagree with him, or rather his conclusions. I’m also aware he tends to write with some bias in favour of the poor Zulus (sob) instead of totally dispassionately – and for this he has also been criticised. But then he was only 22 when he started?

    I don’t follow you about ‘large calibre weapons’ as at that time, thinking was going the other way? Early ball fire was around half inch. The percussion rifle (say 3 band Tower – 1850’s/60’s) was typically . 577. The earlier Martini’s were .450 and the end of the century versions went down to .402, and, were themselves being replaced by the magazine .303, because, the British Army were favouring the stepped cartridge over the bigger slug? Perhaps most or all Martini’s at Isandlwana were .450.

    Thank you for the information about Sirius, my life is enriched by the knowledge. Perhaps the great infallible chief of the time was out of his skull on jungle juice, looked up at the Dog Star and said; “cha ras mun, deb am two of dem!”, :rolleyes: which of course passed into tribal law. Like the two drunks trying to play golf; “I can’t hit all those balls!” – “Why not, you’ve got enough clubs in your hand?” :rolleyes: :D

    No.9

    [ 08. February 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: No.9 ]
     
  18. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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    you rascal! [​IMG]

    They can disagree with Ian Knight all they like, Tony Pollard's the guy on the ground. I know him, and he's one of the country's leading archaeologists. Trouble is that archaeological reports can't be written up till after the dig, and can take years to finish. Look forward to this one though ;)
    Agree squares were the logical answer, but were these guys thinking logically while staring disaster in the face?
    Remind me to scan excerpts from The Sirius Mystery in a future thread, just for me old mate! ;)

    Regards,
    Gordon
     
  19. Carl G. E. von Mannerheim

    Carl G. E. von Mannerheim Ace

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    I too have been interested in the battle of Rorke's Drift lately, thought this might be of interest:

    Version of 'March of the Men of Harlech' Made for 1964 film ZULU

    Men of Harlech stop your dreaming
    Can't you see their spear points gleaming
    See their warrior's pennants streaming
    To this battle field

    Men of Harlech stand ye steady
    It cannot be ever said ye
    For the battle were not ready
    Stand and never yield

    Form the hills rebounding
    Let this war cry sounding
    Summon all at Cambria's call
    The mighty force surrounding

    Men of Harlech onto glory
    This shall ever be your story
    Keep these fighting words before ye
    Welshmen will not (never) yield

    theres an audio clip of it I found, but the site is down at the moment

    Cvm

    [ 07. February 2004, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Carl G. E. von Mannerheim ]
     
  20. No.9

    No.9 Ace

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    A few other thoughts, I take it the bones discovered were British and not Zulu? After all, Chelmsford retook the camp and was there about 6:00pm? Did they not bury their dead?

    Re the battel, logical accounts, given that what was at Isandhlwana was NOT the British Army as in a full field combatant force, but the supplies base left behind by the main columns with an infantry guard, 115 horse, 2 cannon, Commissars, Admin staff, Engineers who were off working on the track, native bearers and horse, and mounted Police. Less than a thousand British. The cavalry went off chasing pockets of Zulu and had to fight their way back.

    The whole line at its most extended when the attacks started was a mile and a half long from Young-Husband on the left to Scott on the conical hill to the east and faced north and north-east. As attacks started, sections started to withdraw and move closer to the base/wagons. A problem with the extremities was that ammunition got low and re-supply became difficult.

    At 1.30 PM Pulleine's line curved in an arc form the north end of Isandhlwana to a point on the rocky crest 600 yards due east of the centre of the camp, with Durnfords cavalry forward on the right holding the donga. Durnford was running short on ammunition, men were sent back but were refused ammunition from the 1/24th's wagons, not being able to find their own. The 1/24th were the infantry holding the centre defence. The whole impi rose for a general advance while the two troop leaders were out of the line. The centre was halted again some 1150 yards short of the line by the 24th companies closing up and firing volleys.

    "Those of the native Horse who could, rode away, bereft of ammunition. Some 85 Europeans reached Helpmakaar these being chiefly of N/5 and the Mounted Infantry. Most of the Basuto and Edendale troops got clear and many of the NNC made their escape."

    The British repeatedly fell back until, out of ammunition and unable to reach further supplies, formed squares where they were and fought with bayonet until they were overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers.

    Effetively, this was the main Zulu battle force taking on the supply bases - did the French win Agincourt becase some massacred Henry's caravan and Herald boys? No, history records them as a bunch of chicken-sh/t scum. So when 20'000+ Zulus attack the Armys supply camp..............

    Anyway, it was a totally different outcome when the same number of Zulus (or greater as they had some 40’000 men in total to utilise), faced the intentional fighting force of the British.

    Battle of Ulundi
    The 1st battalion remained camped at Kambula until early May when it marched to Mumhla Hill and then onto the Umyanyene River where it met up with Lord Chelmsford in early June. By the end of June the battalion was stationed at Entonjaneni Hill, 16 miles from Ulundi, the Zulu headquarters.

    On the 5 July 1879 the British forces crossed the Umvolosi River and formed square, 5,300 men on foot and 899 mounted (6’188). The infantry forming the outer square with the 17th Lancers and Frontier Light Horse behind them. The cannon and Gatling's were placed in pairs at the corners and along three sides, with the ammunition, tool carts, the bearer company and Natal Pioneers in the centre.

    The Zulu's, over 20’000, advanced on the north of the square first followed by their reserve to the south. Irrespective, none reached closer than 30 yards and were effectively shredded by steadfast gun and cannon fire. The enemy was finally defeated by an attack from the 17th Lancers and Light Horse who charged out of the square. The Battle of Ulundi totally crushed the military strength of Cetewayo, the Zulu warriors returned to their kraals and the King fled.
    British casualties 18, the Anglo-Zulu War was over.

    [​IMG]

    No.9

    [ 15. February 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]
     

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