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Air War Over Finland

Discussion in 'Winter and Continuation Wars' started by Fred Wilson, Jun 1, 2014.

  1. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Air War Over Finland

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2_Ze20ZLNg

    During the continuation war alone, 2800 Soviet aircraft were shot down, Finnish Air Force claimed 1600 of them, against 209 aircraft losses and 281 crew men KIA.
     
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  2. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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    Swedish count Eric von Rosen gave the Finnish White government its second aircraft, a Thulin Typ D.

    This aircraft is considered by some to be the first aircraft of the Finnish Air Force, since the Finnish Air Force did not officially exist during the Civil War, and it was only the Red side who flew a few aircraft with the help of some Russian pilots. The von Rosen aircraft was given the designation F.1.

    Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue Hakaristi, the ancient symbol of the sun and good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns tried to paint over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy. The Hakaristi was officially taken into use after an order by Mannerheim on 18 March 1918. The FAF changed the insignia after 1944, due to an Allied Control Commission decree prohibiting the existence of Pro-Hitler and Fascism organizations. The Hakaristi was removed due to the resemblance to the Nazi Swastika.

    Flag of the Finnish Air Force staff

    [​IMG]

    The insignia (Roundel) of the Finnish Air force 1918–1945

    [​IMG]

    The Finnish Air Force Roundel from 1945 on:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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  4. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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  5. Fred Wilson

    Fred Wilson "The" Rogue of Rogues

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  6. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    In case Youtube videos would be removed, look for the title, "Air War Over Finland" or "Suomen ilmasota" for that video user Fred Wilson posted.

    Now a question, from
    From this quote, we know Finnish aircraft manufacturer know about wooden military aircraft construction and its then up-to-date awareness of foreign nation wooden manufacturing.

    For the British, Blenheim bombers and U.S.-made Brewster B239 Buffalo were sold to Finland too late to participate in the Winter War, in additional, British could also help the Finnish to make De Havilland Mosquito.

    My critic is instead of selling more bombers and fighters, sell less but teach how to built Mosquito. Finland has had plenty of timber, mashy and bad road infrastructure favored aircraft transport and fire support. Mosquito could be the multi-purpose aircraft: each participant nation of that war had one or few machines that were widely used. Germans had Pz4 and stug3. Americans has Sherman, Mustang, Japanese had Mitsubishi A6M Zero, etc..
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Why?
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Is this "Why" the same as with Poland Sept 1st 1939? If the USSR had been able to smash through the Finnish borderline it would have been in Norway coast next between the USSR and the UK. The Red Army would never have stopped at the Swedish border and "accidentally" continued the war, promising to return as things had settled down...which is never.The Swedish and Norwegian communist parties would have asked for assistance to protect them.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    No...

    This "Why?" is: Why would the British, specifically De Hallivand, be training the Finns to construct an aircraft that they, themselves, were not yet trained in constructing when the Winter War ended? The construction of the prototype only began around that time - March, 1940.

    Further, Why would the Finns purchase an aircraft that has not been built - it was still in the design stage during the Winter War, and that was for the Photo Reconnaissance model. And since it is still in the design stage, they have no idea when it would be ready for production...Let alone be ready to partake in operational sorties or be combat capable. The first operational sortie of the Mosquito was a photo-reconnaissance sortie on September 19, 1941, and the fighter and bomber variants did not fly operationally until early-1942.

    This is all well after the Winter War has ended. Which is appears to be knightdepaix's point of contention, that the Mosquito could have participated in the Winter War had only the British trained them to build it.




    Knowing how to construct an aircraft and having the ability to construct said aircraft in meaningful numbers are two different things.


    The Bristol Blenheim Mark 1s did participate in the Winter War. The first Blenheims had been purchase in the mid to lat 30's, and there were some 18 operational when the Winter War opened. These would be supplemented in the closing weeks of the war by other Mk1s purchased from Britain.

    The Brewster Buffalo could have participated in the closing weeks of the Winter War, but they were not being assembled in Finland...They were being assembled in Sweden. Also, they had 9 operational in the last week of the war, but the Finns were waiting to have 12 before committing the to combat. The war ended before the any more Brewsters were completed and flown in from Sweden.

    So, if anything, the British would be teaching the Swedes how to build Mosquitos an not the Finns. At least until the Winter War ended.


    Marshy and bad road infrastructure is going to hurt their production capability when the Finns decentralize their industry becuase of fears of bombing raids on their few industrialized cities.

    Why do you think the Finns were assembling their foreign bought aircraft in Sweden? Because the Soviets were very unlikely to attack Sweden.
     
  10. OhneGewehr

    OhneGewehr New Member

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    Maybe they should have asked Fokker to develop a wooden aircraft which then would be built in Finnland and delivered back to Netherlands. The G.1 was already a partly wooden aircraft.

    To me, it was always a miracle how the Finns could maintain all these different aircrafts (dutch, british, french...) and even be superior to the experienced soviet pilots during the Winter War.
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  12. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    From the above, Jumo211F was available before middle 1943 but during or after 1940. While Ta154 had already been under serious consideration in August 1942. Therefore,

    Paraphrasing OhnwGewehr's word, during the Interim Peace time. could aircraft project be conditioned in Finland while Finnish Air Force got reconditioned aircrafts? For example, maybe Focke-Wulf and Fokker started a Finnish wing to build the wooden, utility aircraft prototype production in Finland, using locally sourced aircraft plywood and resin... That Finnish Ta-154 would be upsized to be a twin-engined photo-recon, liaison, torpedo-bomber and light bomber deployed near Murmansk: a hurry-in, deliver and hurry-out aircraft. For example, the crew would be 3, 1 flying the plane and 2 manning the guns in G.1 but the extra space would be created to take passengers and cargo. In essence, Finland would have used that wooden aircraft extensively for duties behind the front line.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  13. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The Jumo 211F-1 began being fitted into production aircraft in July, 1941. Over a year too late for the Winter War.


    your not making any sense with this statement. A reconditioned aircraft is an aircraft that is outdated or worn out, and is refurbished to a new or near new condition.


    I ask again...Why?

    Why would a German company partner with a Dutch company to produce wooden aircraft in FInland?
    Now, given...
    1. The local aviation industry is not that great.
    2. the "local" Lukko glue did not do well in Finnish aircraft production, and ran into many problems.
    3. All of the machinery and personnel will need to be imported.
    4 This will not be mass production of aircraft, nor will said aircraft be used primarily for export, thus this will, at best, be financially questionable.

    The aircraft is certainly not going to have the performance of a Ta-154, so it will not "hurry in" & "hurry out." More than likely this fictitious aircraft will be more akin to the Jumo 211 powered Romanian IAR-79, than the Ta-154.
    IAR 79 - Wikipedia

    Also, the payload capacity is not going to be near enough to make this fictitious aircraft a viable transport aircraft.
     
  14. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    Am I talking about Winter War? Where did you see me talking about Winter War....

    Why not? If Hilter Germany and Finland were warming up diplomatic relations, could a Dutch (not German yet) aircraft manufacturer created a localized daughter company to make prototypes and aircrafts for experiment and usage?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  15. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    After or since near the end of the Winter War, what kind of aircraft did the Finnish Air Force or aviation need most? A utility aircraft that could be a photo recon, liaison and torpedo and light bomber? Near the end of the Continuation War, which would be years after the start of the Winter War, could that utility aircraft be a workhorse? I am not taking about changing the outcome of Soviet winning in the end....
     
  16. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Back when this thread first started, you wrote
    So are we still talking about the Winter War or have we moved on to the Continuation War?

    As to your Wikipedia quote, have you looked closely at it? I don"t think so.

    The Finns captured and reconditioned 8 Soviet SB bombers, of which 5 were available at the start of the Continuation War. The Finns also reconditioned 5 DB-3 bombers, and 10 I-153 fighters that had crashed in their territory during the Winter War. Taken literally, it is correct, the Finns have 13 bombers and 10 fighters that they did not have before. However, in the big scheme of things, it is a drop in the bucket. The bombers are on the verge of obsolesence, as are the fighters. Further, the Finns will rely heavily on the German Luftwaffe to distract the Soviet Air Force elsewhere, so that the Finns do not have to face much air opposition.



    On the whole, this hardly makes the Finnish Air Force better prepared to fight the Continuation War. Perhaps, the author is thinking of the Soviet aircraft which the Germans captured during Barbarossa and sold to Finland - 16 SB bombers, 10 DB-3s, and 11 I-153s.


    Again...Why? It's bad for the business's bottom line and guaranteed to lose the business money. If Finland wants a prototype, Why would Fokker create and staff a whole new company and factories in Finland, when Fokker could design and build it in their existing facilities. Fokker is not going to create another company in another country unless they are assured that there is a profitable demand for the aircraft constructed there, and there simply was not a profitable demand.
     
  17. knightdepaix

    knightdepaix Member

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    How did my start become the solution to Finland?
     
  18. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Because that is what you implied with your hatchet job of Wikipedia.

    The complete Wikipedia passage is
    You took a hatchet and axed all but the first and last sentence with
    Hence, implying that it was the reconditioned Soviet aircraft that made the Finnish Air Force better prepared for the Continuation War. Through your own "cherry-picking", you have completely changed the meaning of the paragraph - you, have made it "the" solution. This, despite the fact that the Finnish Air Force had grown to 550 aircraft, of which reconditioned Soviet aircraft numbered only 13 bombers and 10 fighters - 4% of Finnish Air Force strength.
     

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