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American Victory Program?

Discussion in 'Western Europe 1939 - 1942' started by Kai-Petri, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Victory Program - Wikipedia

    The Victory Program was a military plan for the United States involvement in World War II submitted prior to the country's official entry into the war following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The plan was initially secret, but was famously exposed by the Chicago Tribune on December 4, 1941, 3 days before Pearl Harbor.

    America’s Victory Program ‹ HistoricWings.com :: A Magazine for Aviators, Pilots and Adventurers

    Predictably, the majority of neutrality-minded Americans were outraged. Hearings were scheduled in the Congress and Senate. It seemed that Roosevelt had found himself facing a political crisis — exactly as the Montana Senator wanted. What rescued Roosevelt’s reputation from double-dealing and possible impeachment, however, wasn’t fancy political maneuvering or a cover-up. Rather, Roosevelt’s Presidency was saved by the Japanese.

    The next day, on Friday, the House and Senate were alive with debate and outrage on the issue. Papers highlighting key aspects of the war plan were held up to emphasize the points made. Numerous speeches condemned the President. Passages were quoted, including the plan’s demand to mobilize 10 million men in uniform. Then the weekend came and the debate was put on pause. That Sunday, on December 7, 1941, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. On Monday, America declared war on Japan.

    Amidst the shock of the events of Pearl Harbor, it seemed that everyone forgot about the Chicago Daily Tribune’s publication of the “Victory Program” — everyone that is, except Adolph Hitler.
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    American Victory program.
     
  3. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean everyone except Hitler?
     
  4. Riter

    Riter Active Member

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    I thought this was about gardening.

    If you check out American naval developments, you will learn that we started building modern ships before 1941. Battleships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers were being designed, budgeted and keels laid before the Japanese attack. We were much slower on tanks though.
     
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  6. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    Because it is very likely one of the, or the, reason Hitler declared war on the US - Because he was under no obligation to do so.
     
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  7. Ricky

    Ricky Active Member

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    Not sure that makes sense to me. Declaring war on somebody because they had drawn up a plan in case of a war with you... all you're doing is guaranteeing that the plan becomes reality.

    Mind you, good sense and Hitler go together like a horse and marriage.

    The most plausible theory I've read is that Hitler was basically hoping that by declaring on Japan's biggest enemy that Japan would declare on his biggest enemy. But Japan wasn't that daft.
     
  8. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Seems I sorta misunderstood the question. Thanx for the correction.
     
  9. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    It was much more than simply "a plan in case of a war with you", it was a plan, that said, in July, 1943, we will hit Germany with an army of 5 million men.

    There is some sense in it. If Hitler could do enough damage with his Kriegsmarine & U-Boats to forestall this American invasion, while defeating the USSR(which at the time was looking very likely) & defeat Britain(more than a bit of a stretch). Germany would be able to hold against the US.

    That has never been very plausible if you look at German, Japanese, and Soviet diplomatic relations & objectives prior to December, 1941.
     
  10. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    For all the negative American rhetoric Hitler said, I'm reading "Hitler: the Downfall" and according to Count Ciano, at the time of operation Torch, Ciano said "Hitler doesn't underestimate American Initiative and wants to secure the Mediterranean." That is a summary of the quote, but it was lifted from his diaries.
     
  11. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In a way it was weird Hitler started taking loads of troops and even Tigers to Tunis where they soon were trapped and Lost. I know it was in order to keep Italy in war but losing all those troops was madness.
     
  12. GunSlinger86

    GunSlinger86 Well-Known Member

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    For the Germans, the mainland Italian theatre was the best-equipped and battle-hardened units in the German Army, and they had around 20 divisions in full strength. For those who say the MTO didn't matter I say hogwash.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The thing is that when Rommel was having a good time attacking towards Egypt he was not getting enough support. But after Torch and Alamein Hitler sent equipment that did not change the end result anymore. He took LAH away to Italy from Zitadelle and suddenly started to be interested in North Africa. He told Rommel to stop crying and return the men to the front line in Alamein. He just did not understand the situation if it was even possible once Monty's attack had started.
     
  14. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    No offense, but Zitatelle was in July 1943, as was the Allied invasion of Sicily which led Hitler to redeploy LAH; North Africa had been over a couple of months by then.

    I agree that the combination of Rommel's defeat at El Alamein and the Torch landings made the Axis campaign in North Africa a lost cause. Troops and material sent to Tunisia were virtually guaranteed to be lost, in exchange for a few months' delay of the Allies' next move.

    Hitler may have been motivated in part by loyalty to Mussolini. Libya was an Italian colony with a civilian population of about 150,000; just giving it up would have been a political blow to Il Duce. Of course it was all gone in a couple of months anyway.

    Ironically Torch may have given Panzerarmee Afrika a brief lease on life. They were pushed back to the Tunisian border by January 1943; if Vichy North Africa had still been neutral, Rommel would have had to choose between surrender, internment, or being the first to break the Franco-German armistice - with Montgomery's army hot on his heels.
     
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  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Just read about Hitler actions in the Mediterrenean after Torch after a long time. After Darlan deal Hitler invaded Vichy France and he sent troops to Tunis. Yes, Zitadelle was July while the DAK faced its end in May?!
    Just wonder if Vichy France troops would have fought the Americans without the Darlan deal at least longer? After Darlan deal the French joined the Allied forces if I understood correctly.
     
  16. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    That's an intriguing idea, but I don't think it's a rationale for declaring war on Dec 11. The Kriegsmarine was as surprised as anyone; it took over a month to get just five U-boats on their way to American waters. Even with the German declaration, and the "Germany first" policy, the outbreak of war with Japan inevitably drew American forces, especially warships, to the Pacific. Would there have been any disadvantage to Hitler in waiting to see how the American threat would develop and preparing to meet it?
     
  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Was Overlord close to failure? If the weather had made it fail or destroyed the landing of supplies mid-june, I have understood that it would have taken a year to make another Overlord. Then Hitler could have moved more panzer divisioona to east but with time I think Germany would have Lost but what a morale defeat either could have been in 1944 to the Allied.Ike made even an Overlord lost-letter if I recall correctly.
     
  18. Domobran7

    Domobran7 Member

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    LAH was not removed from the Zitadelle because of Sicily; I have an old article archived on my blog, and in that section it writes:
    Landings or no landings, Citadel was a loss for Germans. So we agan go back to the old "cause and effect" conundrum: rather than Sicily landings, it was casualties which had forced redeployment of LSSAH. Division left all its heavy equipment to other divisions, and was only sent to Italy after Benito Mussolini had been deposed. And even then, it was nowhere near its full combat power.
     
  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Hitler suddenly thought that the Zitadelle would create enough havoc and time until 1944 to create more units and bring more men to the the front. He did not have any idea the Red Army would start its own massive offensensive around Kursk. To him the " Russe ist tot" since 1942.
     

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