Another shooting incident in Finland

Hello Herakles,

some good points, but I do not agree on the issue of banning guns or firearms as such.
In Germany you get your gun license after approval by the respective Police station (Check your Criminal and Mental Past). Upon obtaining the lisense you have to get registered at a shooting club.

This is were the weapon also has to be kept after emptying your wallet (ah Magazins). Under certain restrictions (Military/Police member or Hunter lisense) you are allowed to take the weapon home (Just in case you need to count them - sheep like - before you sleep

So more or less the neighbour hood is safe.

Regards
Kruska

 

the guy was obviously pretty messed up, but it sounds like he was aware of his actions. the blame for what happened lies upon him and no one else. it does annoy me that the media is making the fact that he listened to Metallica and Rammstein sound like that's the motive. I love those bands, and so do millions of others who've had problems and dealt with them in constructive ways. It isn't the music, he was just a bad person. i hope that the families find some kind of closure and can rebuild their lives after this horrible event

 

I take your point Kruska. Properly controlled like you point out is the way to go. I've got nothing against those who enjoy the SPORT of shooting under controlled conditions. I did it myself.

But being able to walk into a shop and come away with sophisticated weaponry with minimal or no checks, is plainly absurd.

And to argue that it's necessary for personal protection is a furphy. Even worse, to regard it as a right is downright ridiculous.

Just as bad is the unrestricted sale of complex knives.

Then again, I would encourage small boys to have a toy gun. This is quite unrelated to the matter.

 

HMMMMMMM...Now where have I seen something similar to this before??? . Oh yeah!!! This thread!!!

http://www.ww2f.com/free-fire-zone/24638-win-one-us-gun-totin-gippers.html

 

As Jeff said, I know many women who love to shoot

Southerners. look at where I live Herakles. I'm from PA and was the first to respond. Based on what you said lets cut off everyones arms and feet in the world. Quadrapalegics cant shoot, stab, or even beat anyone to death. that will for sure make the world a safer place.

Oh now under certian provision, okayed by you, it is acceptable. You flip flop worse than the US congress on your stance.

 

just so you guys know, it ain't "easy" to get a gun in Finland, you need to apply for it from the Police, they will check your background etc.

This dude had a permit for a .22 target shooting pistol (Walther P22 Target).

If guns were to be banned, i bet these sickos could get their hands on one, but who would illegally import something as small as as .22 pistol to kill people? 9mm is much more destructive, or a rifle, or a shotgun. There are other ways of killing people too, like bombs, now that is scary.

All im trying to say is banning guns isn't the solution, if somebody is so mentally ill that he has to commit something like this, he will do it whether he can get a gun or not.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Theres your problem.

 

And there ya go. That is exactly the point. If you are bound and determine to kill you will use any means possible. And Im not bashing the UK but look at the "Knife Culture" that has popped up in the UK.

 

No, it doesn't work, and claiming that it does is either ignorance or selectively choosing your data. In the last few months in China (which has banned private ownership of guns), there has been a spate of homicidal attacks by persons using knives. In one case a person armed with a knife attacked a police station, stabbing nine officers and killing six. In Japan (which also bans private gun ownership) last spring a man armed with a knife drove a truck into a group of pedestrians, then jumped out and began stabbing the injured. He killed eleven people and injured a dozen more.

You say you consider gun ownership a "disgrace". Well, I consider anyone who expects someone else, the police or the government, to protect them and their family, not only a coward and a disgrace, but irresponsible, as well. You don't necessarily need to own a gun to take care of yourself, but the reality is, it sure doesn't hurt when the chips are down. The "testosterone" thing is bullcrap; that's just an excuse for people who lack the balls to learn how to protect themselves.

Sorry to be so blunt, but there just doesn't seem to be any way of reasoning politely with folks like you, so you get my opinion in plain English without the "sugar-coating".

 

And who can forget this act of violence?

Victims Face Long Wait For HIV Status

The victims of last Friday's stabbing rampage by a drunken youth in Berlin will suffer months of uncertainty about whether they contracted AIDS, after it emerged one of the first people attacked was HIV positive.

​

Police officers cordon off the area in central Berlin where the youth rampaged.


Dozens of people face an agonizing six-month wait to find out whether they have contracted the AIDS virus after they were stabbed by a drunken 16-year-old youth who rampaged through Berlin last Friday, because it has emerged that one of his first victims was HIV positive.
The teenager, named only as Mike P., was among hundreds of thousands who attended an open-air festival to mark the opening of Berlin's new train station on Friday night. As the crowd broke up afterwards, he started kicking and stabbing people as he walked along. He stabbed several in the back and behind, others in the front.
Within 15 minutes he had injured at least 28 people, six of them seriously, until he was overpowered by private security guards and handed to the police. Over the weekend, after police announced that one of the victims had been HIV positive, more people who had been only slightly injured came forward, raising the total to 35.
In addition, dozens of police and medical staff who came into contact with the victims have to undergo AIDS tests. Initial tests have been negative but they won't get the final all-clear until they have been tested again in six months.
The attack has sparked fears for public safety during the month-long World Cup which starts on June 9, when massive crowds will gather at soccer stadiums and in public match viewing areas. But officials said it was an isolated case and that police were already doing all they could to protect people during the tournament.
Waiting for HIV results
One of the victims of Friday's attack, named as the 24-year-old Ulf K., who was stabbed in the shoulder, told Bild newspaper: "I first heard about the HIV from reporters. Ten minutes later the doctor came in and told me they'd already done two blood tests and that they were negative. But that hasn't given me peace of mind. The fear remains."
The patients are being given drugs which can reduce the chance of contracting HIV. "I now have to take eight tablets a day for the next four weeks," said Ulf.
Experts say the chance of contracting HIV from a stab wound is approximately the same as getting it from an infected syringe -- about one in 300. There are other factors that affect the likelihood of the infection. For example, the person stabbed immediately after the HIV positive victim is more likely to have contracted HIV than the subsequent victims.
The attacker, Mike P., comes from the run-down Neukölln district of Berlin. He denies being the attacker. He faces charges of attempted murder.
cro/reuters/bild


Berlin Stabbings: Victims Face Long Wait For HIV*Status - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

 

I never doubted that if I rattled the gun toter's cage, they would come out with all the predictable twaddle to protect their belief.

The facts are otherwise. Look around and try to understand that a gun culture is obscene.

Of course someone hell bent on destruction will do all he can regardless of laws.

To suggest someone is cowardly for expecting the police to protect them is the height of absurdity.

You Americans are isolationist with this attitude. The civilised world condemns you for your gun culture.

 

I suppose people like you speak for the "civilized world"? Now there's a joke if I ever heard one.

It's not only cowardly to expect someone else to protect you, it's downright stupid. When it comes right down to it, neither the police nor the government can protect you or your family; all they can do is take the crime report and, if they are interested, find your attacker.

What is a "gun-culture"? And why is it "obscene" to want to be able to possess the implements necessary to protect one's self and one's family? Because you are too cowardly to assert your right to protect your own life? Now that is REALLY obscene! To pay someone else to do the dirty work, risk his or her life or whatever, to keep you safe because you lack the character to do what it takes to protect yourself.

Your disdain for the personal responsibility of protecting yourself, and people who accept that responsibility is despicable, as is the willingness to put others in a position of danger because you are too submissive and precious to be troubled to take care of yourself. Spare us the phony moral outrage because we recognize it for what it is; cowardice. You can tell the "civilized world" to stick it's condemnation where the sun don't shine, we know what the real reason is.

 

BTW, I recall reading that due to some "massacre" hand guns were not allowed to private use in the UK ca 1996. Is that so and how has it worked?

All right, found the site...

BBC ON THIS DAY | 16 | 1996: Handguns to be banned in the UK

 

Yes, it was Dunblane which quite closely followed the massacre by another lunatic at Hungerford.

My personal view is that the already very strict controls in place were sufficient and that a complete, total ban was a Governmental knee-jerk reaction to the inevitable, and understandable, public revulsion after the tragedy.

What was at fault was the prior inaction of the police, who had been informed that Hamilton was unfit to keep arms, had actually interviewed him, but no action was taken.

The papers from the subsequent Inquiry into the role of the police have been sealed from public view for One Hundred Years ( ) 'in the public interest'.

Go figure that one......

 

It was a frightful tragedy.

The man walked into the gym at Dunblane primary school and killed 16 young children and their teacher. He also injured 13 other children and three teachers. Hamilton, a former scout master, then shot himself.

As for the success of the ban - it has worked. These days people knife each other instead. The incidence of knifings in London has reached epidemic proportions.

This massacre happened at much the same time as one in Australia- at Port Arthur in Tasmania. The Australian Govt. acted immediately and banned guns. There have been no such killings since.

What I can't understand is that after every massacre in American schools, nothing is done at all except people strut around saying that it's their right to own guns. Now it's happened twice in Norway and it looks like the Norwegians are going to do the obvious thing- ban guns.

It is an inviolable law in countries like the UK that taking the law into your owns hands, i.e. protecting yourself with a gun, is completely forbidden. It IS the role of the police force to protect citizens. In fact this is written into European law as well.

I am unable to say if various American police are able to offer protection or not.

 

Here we go again...

I believe I'm a civilised person and I don't condemn the USA for their gun culture. Over here gun ownership is severely controlled, not totally banned but you have to prove you have a stringent need for a handgun for self defense. Sport guns are something else but you have to carry them locked in your cars trunk to the gun club and back, etc. etc. etc. Almost free use of hunting shotguns.

Gunfire incidents? Almost zero. The odd shooting incident (my father shot his brother in law in a hunting accident once!), and very occasional news of crime involving guns, and the police does stamp on those as fast as they can. In any case there is a very brisk business on illegal guns, but for me no thanks! Which gives living evidence to the popular dictum above "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"!

Over here road deaths, mostly to criminal misuse of vehicles, overshadow gun casualties by several orders of magnitude. Cars haven't been banned yet.

Yes, people will kill people whether they have access to guns or not. Over here they will use knives, insect poison, beating anything. A gun when available will only make the result easier.

 

Although Brazil has 100 million fewer citizens than the United States, and more restrictive gun laws, there are 25 percent more gun deaths.

In South Africa, owning a gun is conditional on a competency test and several other factors, including background checking of the applicant, inspection of an owners premises, and licensing of the weapon by the police introduced in July 2004.
It should be noted that although South Africa has the second highest violent crime rate in the World (revised to no. 1 position by nationmaster.com crime stats Sept 2007) - 98% of gun crime is performed with illegal (unlicensed) weapons.

Since 1998, the number of people injured by firearms in England and Wales increased by 110%

I also suggest you read these links
LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP SAVES LIVES | National Center for Policy Analysis
Gun Facts - Firearms Ownership And Responsible Behavior

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

and finally
District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Amzing how some individuals will change this thread from a tragedy and make it into a US bashing thread.

 

Yes it is sad, but if you attack my country (verbal or otherwise), I will defend it.

The shooting was a sad tragedy. As Erich pointed out I too would lie to interview the parents. I'm sure just five minutes will be all it would take to figure out where this kid got his sick ideals. Still praying for the families.

 

As will I Mike. I have the families and freinds in my thoughts. Why is it everytime a shooting happens somewhere else that someone has to get on his high moral horse and has to bring the US into it though? This didn't happen in the US.

 

I get a big laugh whenever the sheep claim it it is up to the police to protect them. Let's see, the police interviewed the Dunblane shooter Before the incident, but that sure didn't protect the victims. In the latest incident in Finland, the police interviewed the shooter the day before the incident, but that sure didn't protect the victims. As I said before, no police force can protect you, they can only take the report and MAYBE arrest the perpetrater. But not, of course, in the latest incident. Does it really matter to then victims whether they are killed by a person wielding a knife or a gun? They are just as dead.

It is NOT "taking the law into your own hands" when you act to protect yourself or the lives of your family. It is your absolute right as a human being to protect yourself. If that right is denied you by a misguided government, no other rights matter. So it is the most fundamental of human rights that the sheep, and the governments of many countries, are denying their citizens.