Another tragic school shooting

smeghead phpbb3 · Feb 22, 2007

Guts in which context?

establishing tougher gun laws is not going to help much, because the criminals already have the guns.
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Yes it is going to help... Criminals get their guns illegaly, fine... That is the systems fault as much as it is the criminals... The system needs to make sure that criminals can't obtain weapons illegaly, as they have a responsibility to do so...

Right now the American government is making it easier for them to obtain weapons illegaly; their lenient system is easier to bypass... More scrutiny would be welcome when selling guns, because at some point the gun passes between legal propetry and illegal property in the posession of a criminal... Criminals do not make their own guns, they get them from legal sources... Making sure that they don't get guns in the first place is something the government can control to a better extent

What angers people is that law abiding responsible gun owners always get punished for the antics of inner city thugs.
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Well thats just the way the rotten world is... You can't expect your problems to blow away without making some sacrifices yourself... If waiting an extra week to recieve a gun is too high a price for heightened civil order then that's America's problem... not mine

majorwoody10 · Feb 22, 2007

smeg...criminals DONT get guns from legal sources...unless you consider buying stolen property a legal source ...i myself have had opertunitys to buy nice clean shiney guns for way under retail ,i refrained because i am not a felon and do not wish to become one simply by possesing such a foolish thing ..where would i shoot it ,guns are loud and can often attract police scrutiny ..possesing a gun with the id numbers filed off is a felony,it is a crime to sell or buy a firearm without going through a licsensed gun dealer .to posses a long gun of less than 26 inches ,to carrie a loaded gun in your car..to posess certain military style semi automatic rifles ( based soley on apperance )..we have oodles of new gun laws here in califonia ,i mostly make it a point to know and complie with gun laws ,why not ,its easy enough......but heres the thing ,criminal types not only dont know the law ,they dont give a shyt ..it never even occurs to them that carrieing a loaded ,25 inch long shotgun with the numbers filed off hidden under their car seat ,is like adding another 5 felony counts for no good reason ...their really dumb smeg ,thats why they are criminals ..all those laws mean absolutley squat ...to them ...guns are common enough in american households ,burglery is a common crime ...ergo ,free guns ... more gun laws effect only me ...not them...sigh ...is any of this sinking in if i were raised in a culture that was devoid of guns im sure i would feel mostly safe from gun weilding thugs but not from fist or knife weilding tuffs..i dunno ,i guess its how one is socialized,personaly i much prefer the option of being able to defend myself and my family with something other than my bare hands or a stick...unfortunately , god really did not create all men equal ...but col. colt did...

smeghead phpbb3 · Feb 23, 2007

What I mean is, at some point in a guns life... A gun turns from being legal property, into being illegal property...Whether it is stolen or sold by a crooked dealership, or if it is sold to someone legit who uses it for criminal purposes later... The government can monitor such things

For example... In Australia, I personally do not own a gun license... When I go to a firing range, I am allowed to practise with a rifle as much as I like... However, if I want to fire a pistol, I am allowed to practise with a pistol on THREE separate occasions, after which I am banned from using them until I obtain a gun license... This is done to prevent me from learning how to properly use a pistol, which can be easily concealed as used in a robbery... Also no one is allowed to buy guns without a license... Such minor restrictions as these reduce crime just a little without inconviencing the public all that much...

For the billion-and-one-th time... Gun control does not mean the government will take guns away from good law abiding citizens... People have a right to own guns... SO LONG as they prove they are responsible enough to use them legally, something which it seems isn't required in the U.S.

All gun control means is that you'll have to wait another week before you get it... During which time the government will ideally make sure the gun is going to be used responsibly

Seriously, whats the problem?

Canadian_Super_Patriot · Feb 23, 2007

The only way to stop gun crime is to to make it illegal and destroy all existing fire arms. I would not like it to come to that, but that appears to be the only way, unless there is some benevolent responsibility surge and people stopped shooting each other over stupid things and stopped starting oppurtunities where they can get shot and follow the rest of the law.(thats not gonna happen) Im sure criminals will find others ways to kill, though.

Grieg · Feb 23, 2007

smeghead said:

What I mean is, at some point in a guns life... A gun turns from being legal property, into being illegal property...

.. Such minor restrictions as these reduce crime just a little without inconviencing the public all that much...

Seriously, whats the problem?
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Reduce crime? Are you sure?

Banning Guns Has Backfired

by John R. Lott, Jr.

Worried that even showing a starting pistol in a car ad might encourage gun crime in Britain, the British communications regulator has banned a Ford Motor Co. television spot because in it a woman is pictured holding such a "weapon." According to a report by Bloomberg News, the ad was said by regulators to "normalize" the use of guns and "must not be shown again."

What's next? Toy guns? Actually, the British government this year has been debating whether to ban toy guns. As a middle course, some unspecified number of imitation guns will be banned, and it will be illegal to take imitation guns into public places.

And in July a new debate erupted over whether those who own shotguns must now justify their continued ownership to the government before they will get a license.

The irony is that after gun laws are passed and crime rises, no one asks whether the original laws actually accomplished their purpose. Instead, it is automatically assumed that the only "problem" with past laws was they didn't go far enough. But now what is there left to do? Perhaps the country can follow Australia's recent lead and ban ceremonial swords.

Despite the attention that imitation weapons are getting, they account for a miniscule fraction of all violent crime (0.02%) and in recent years only about 6% of firearms offenses. But with crime so serious, Labor needs to be seen as doing something. The government recently reported that gun crime in England and Wales nearly doubled in the four years from 1998–99 to 2002–03.

Crime was not supposed to rise after handguns were banned in 1997. Yet, since 1996 the serious violent crime rate has soared by 69%: robbery is up by 45% and murders up by 54%. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50% from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.

The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S.

The high crime rates have so strained resources that 29% of the time in London it takes police longer than 12 minutes to arrive at the scene. No wonder police nearly always arrive on the crime scene after the crime has been committed.

As understandable as the desire to "do something" is, Britain seems to have already banned most weapons that can help commit a crime. Yet, it is hard to see how the latest proposals will accomplish anything.

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Banning guns that fire blanks and some imitation guns. Even if guns that fire blanks are converted to fire bullets, they would be lucky to fire one or two bullets and most likely pose more danger to the shooter than the victim. Rather than replace the barrel and the breach, it probably makes more sense to simply build a new gun.
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Making it very difficult to get a license for a shotgun and banning those under 18 from using shotguns also adds little. Ignoring the fact that shotguns make excellent self-defense weapons, they are so rarely used in crime, that the Home Office's report doesn't even provide a breakdown of crimes committed with shotguns.

Britain is not alone in its experience with banning guns. Australia has also seen its violent crime rates soar to rates similar to Britain's after its 1996 Port Arthur gun control measures. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed (from 1997 to 2002) than they did the year before the law in 1995. The same comparisons for armed robbery rates showed increases of 74%.

During the 1990s, just as Britain and Australia were more severely regulating guns, the U.S. was greatly liberalizing individuals' abilities to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have so-called right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check and pay a fee. Only half the states require some training, usually around three to five hours' worth. Yet crime has fallen even faster in these states than the national average. Overall, the states in the U.S. that have experienced the fastest growth rates in gun ownership during the 1990s have experienced the biggest drops in murder rates and other violent crimes.

Many things affect crime; the rise of drug-gang violence in Britain is an important part of the story, just as it has long been important in explaining the U.S.'s rates. Drug gangs also help explain one of the many reasons it is so difficult to stop the flow of guns into a country. Drug gangs can't simply call up the police when another gang encroaches on their turf, so they end up essentially setting up their own armies. And just as they can smuggle drugs into the country, they can smuggle in weapons to defend their turf.

Everyone wants to take guns away from criminals. The problem is that if the law-abiding citizens obey the law and the criminals don't, the rules create sitting ducks who cannot defend themselves. This is especially true for those who are physically weaker, women and the elderly.

September 6, 2004
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Link to another article:

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=570

Canadian_Super_Patriot · Feb 23, 2007

nice post Grieg

Siberian Black · Feb 23, 2007

On a slightly different note, things were kinda heated today at school.

A school in Oakridge foud grafitti in a boy washrom stating that a gun would open fire in the school (not sure if it meant that specific school or just a school but either way......) The date given was the 23- which is today (duh.....) Anyways, we had all but one set of doors locked (AFAIK all day)

(If you've heard about this, please correct any mistakes, I don't remember a lot of the details)

majorwoody10 · Feb 24, 2007

when i was in hs in cali in the early 70s it was common practice amongst us boys to wear large folding buck knives on our belts and steel toed work boots ...very macho....though fist fights were common enough ,no one ever pulled out their buck ,no matter how badly they were loseing at fisticuffs. (because that would land you in jail ,get you suspended and generally ruin your life) ...school shootings were unheard of,,, then , when the first school shootings happened in the mid 80s iirc ..the huge hysterical media circus that always ensued made the perpitrators hugely infamous celebrity giants bigger than john dillinger or charles manson ....needless to say more school shootings were spawned almost immediatly....want to be a historic legend like lee harvey oswald ?... easy . bring a gun to school ,settle some old scores and watch the sober faced tv media jackels ( pretending to be so upset to have to report this storie ) make you immortal....but remember ...you have to do it at school while your still enrolled if you wait till after graduation and just shoot ordinary people on the street ,your still gonna be just a faceless nobody...

Canadian_Super_Patriot · Feb 25, 2007

Great point

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