anti aircraft used as anti tank (german 88)

Hi!
Just a question. I was wondering why british and american antiaircraft guns were not used in anti tank purpose like the german 88.

Have you any idea about that, maybe is because the 88 is a gun apropriate for this kind of operation, or maybe is just because the germans have a different idea of how to use their 88...I don't know?

 

Hello Comet: Howitzers and 155 Long Toms were used on occasion to destroy enemy tanks. At bastogne, Howitzers were used to defend against German tanks when the Germans got too close to town.

I have heard about 155's being used in Italt as AT guns. On one occasion, Audie Murphy called in a 155 barrage on some German tanks attacking a farmhouse that he and his squad were using as a forward observation post.

 

God!!!

I can not imagine a 155 mm hit on a Panther or Tiger!! OUAAAAAUUU.

Nevertheless the usage of artillery as AT in US and british army is not as common as in german. Why?

 

I dont know why its not as common for the allied armies to use Artillery as AT Guns, except for the fact that we had plentiful supplies of the right equipment. Bazookas, mines etc etc.

The Germans intended the 88 to be used only as a Flak weapon, but at somepoint, they were used as AT Guns because that was all they had. They had great success using the 88 in that roll, and the word was passed around as to its success in that roll.

It wasnt till late 43 or sometime in 44, when the Germans made their own version of the "Stovepipe" and Panzerfausts, so they were forced to improvise--or die.

 

Guys :

I'm in soewhat of disagreement but maybe I am seconding what your are saying here. I have pics of Flak 18's being used by Waffen SS troops in the artillery role while in the mountains of Greece. It seems that the Flak 18/36 could be and was used in the multi-purpose role, artillery, flak and tank killer. obviously this was a God-send on the russian front where there were so many Russian tanks, T-34's And the big KV's running around where the lighter 50mm's and even 75mm's couldn't touch, so the flak units were brought up forward and used in this famous role. Though limited in number compared to US and British artillery pieces, the 88mm was used everywhere........it had to be.

E.

 

Erich, I agree with you and I think the point was basically that the Germans used whatever was available, in order to do their job.

I think the Allies were just lucky that so many weapons were in ready supply, well lecky and many civilian workers-that is.

 

Carl :

Agreed ! My computer is trying to do a blitz on me, and I think it's having server probelms again, so if my posts get a little blurbed.......you'll understand why.

also, any captured German guns were used with great effect against their previous owners.........i.e. North Afrika as an example by the British especially......any 88 lying about and abandoned.

E

 

Dear Erich< I sure would love to see photos of the allies using 88's. I know it happened too, but not sure which battles. Makes since though, using 88's when captured.

I bet the Germans regreted it though and

 

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree here:

The 88's made their debut as AT-weapon at Arras in 1940.

The advantage was two sided:
1)The 37mm gun on the Pz.III was useless against the heavy French Char B series, as was the 75mm L24 gun at long ranges. The armor piercing granate of the 88mm FlaK gun had no problem with penetrating any French tank.
2) The incredible range of the 88's. With a firing speed of 20 shots per minute and a effective range against most tanks of upto 2000 meters it was capable of destroying enemy armour on the wide plains of both North Africa and Russia and the enemy could not fire at them.

Thus it was not a question of using everything available. It was simply the most effective way to destroy without being killed. Starting in 1940 the FlaK crews where equipped with sufficient AP-ammo for their guns to be fully operational in their role as AT-support.

As for why they didn't use the 90mm AA guns on the American side for this purpose:
well, thats the Allied logic of that time. Why stick to Shermans is a similar question.

But keep in mind that by that time the Allied Air power and Artillery power was sufficient to deal with most German Panzers.

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

 

I was under the impression that they were first used in Spain. And the way i see it, if you have a weapon that can perform more than one role, all the better. Of course the FLAK versions were not ideal in the ground role because of their size, but did any nation consider the need for an AT gun of that callibre at that stage of the war. As for the pics, i do have a couple of photos in books of US troops using 8.8cm PAK43.

 

The allies didnt/couldnt use flak guns in AT roles because they were not at the front. The Allies had so many SPG's/AFV's that these were quite commonplace on the front and negated the need for towed multi purpose guns. Also, the Germans produced an astounding number of AA guns because they rarely had possession of the sky, the US had far fewer in action because they usually owned the sky. So the guns just werent there.
Sextons, Archers, Deacons, Bishops, Priests,Long Toms, M10's, M18's,and M36's were provided to Allied armies in such numbers to make the towed piece obselete. Towed 57mm AT pieces (57 of which were assigned to US divisions per TO&E) were found to be quite useless as they were of small caliber and little use in offensive actions. As the US army moved through France, Self-Propelled AT battalions of 36 AFV's were attatched to these divisions and the towed pieces were one by one left behind. By Fall of '44 this became standard practice and any Armored Division taking place in an offensive combat would be provided with one or two SP battalions, and would leave towed AT guns behind.
Any unattatched SP battalions would usually be sent with infantry divisions for destroying/suppressing fire from German strongpoints along their line of advance. This illustrates how many we had, we didnt use them all on occasion

 

Ive seen it mentioned in 2-3 books written by German Officers that state that the 88 was first used in an AT role in France by men in Rommels command.

The sources are these books: SOLDAT, by Maj Siegfried Knappe, Panzer Commander by Col Hans von Luck and Panzer Battles by Genmaj F.W. von Mellenthin.

I know in particular, at least two of thewse books specifically mentioned that the 88s were first used in the AT role while Rommel commanded the 7th Panzer Division during the French campaign.

Timo is correct.

 

An AA shell and AT shell were two different rounds of ammo, I would have to assume the 88Flak's AT capability was known early on.

 

Yes, as it did not take a military genius to figure what a 88mm longrange gun can do to a tank.
AP-ammo was issued to the FlaK-crews (all calibres!)prior to Fall Gelb, but Arras was its first actual battle as an AT-gun.

Cheers,
Timo

 

This is one of those read-it-somewhere-but-can't-remember-where things. I've read at least two authors theorizing that the British 3.7'' ack-ack gun would have made excellent anti-tank artillery in the same way that the 88 was used. The gun was available throughout the war but only used in mainland UK. I'm a bit vague on this one but it sounds an interesting might-have-been ?

 

Thanks Otto
I really like the forum. . .
Back to that gun, you're probably right. Trouble is, Deighton's book is one that I read but didn't keep for my collection so can't check . .

It just makes me feel uncomfortable that in the early stages of the war we ( the British ) relied on a two-pounder 'pop-gun' for anti-tank !
There is a 3.7''AA in the nearby RAF Museum and I often look at it and wonder what it could have done to some of Rommel's Panzer III's......

 

I also noticed that the Western Allies did not focus too much on anti-tank weapons until it was too late whereas the Germans and Russians had various types of anti-tank weapons from ATR to the large caliber static/mobile guns. I think that the Western Allies perhaps were thinking WWI style of warfare where small amounts of tanks would be used to support the infantry and therefore they would rely on their tanks to knock out the enemy tanks. Boy, did they pay a high price for that thinking.

 

I also seem to remember that the first use of an 88 against ground targets was made in Spain. AFAIK, it was used in Spain as an improvisation, and following that ground sights and AT ammunition were developed and fitted. Could be dead wrong though.

 

Hallo, gentemen!

Many of you have right points. It is good that you gave life again to this old post I had not seen. (Then I did not know this forum existed to my sorrow...)

Mighty 88 mm cannon entered service during WWI as an antiaircrat gun. We had already used our lighter 75 mm cannons against British Mk and French Renaults in 1918. Our infantry was defenseless against those iron monsters...

Then, during the Spanish Civil War the 88s were modernised and used for their initial porpouse, but some offucers and artillery men found out at once that the cannon had a lot of qualities as an antitank gun, common artillery cannon and of course as an antiaircraft gun.

Then, as Timo said, during the invasion of France in 1940, when French Mechanised divisions of DeGaulle and British armoured brigades attacked the flanks of the 7th Panzerdivision in Arras, Rommel ordered to use the heaviest guns available (88s) to counter attack the allied attacks. Because the 20 mm, 37 mm, 50 mm and short 75 mm guns of Mks. II, 38(t), III and IV could not pierce the thick armour of Mathildas (the tank with the thickest armour in 1940) nor the Char Bs and other allied tanks. Also the standard anti tank gun 37 mm was useless. So, the long-range and rapid 88 guns, also easily carriable was used very effective. All the anti-aircraft artillery batallions that Panzerdivisionen had were then used as anti tank artillery because of the great adaptability (?) of the 88s. Then, Marshall Rommel learnt the lesson and a year later, when again he faced heavy Matildas with his useless Mk II's 20 mm gun, Mk III's 50 mm gun and Mk IV's short 75 mm guns... he remembered those mighty 88s and used them again in an even more effective way, using Alexander the great's tactics of pushing enemy tanks with his own tanks until the range of the 88s. When it was obvious for all German commanders then special ANTI-TANK 88s were produced ant distributed in the front with better results. That's the PAK 88, but the FLAK 88 was still being produced and used as anti-aircraft gun and used as anti-tank gun whenever necessary.