Armor in Berlin

Waaay back I was looking into the supposed presence of at least one Elefant Heavy Tank Destroyer in Berlin. Never really got anywhere with that, but the armor usage during the battle for Berlin continues to fascinate me. In my continued re-aquaintance with my sources, I was poring through the Concord Publications Armor at War Series "Panzers in the East: (2) Decline and Defeat 1943-1945" by Michulec. Noticed this in in a caption on the last page:
"During the last two weeks of fighting in the Berlin area, the Germans lost about 850 tanks and self-propelled guns, many of them being abandoned due to breakdowns or lack of fuel."

In the admittedly relatively basic sources I've read on Berlin (the classics on the battle plus some tangential mentions in armored unit histories and so on), I've yet to come across any real expansive description of the afvs and units that used them/what they used during the battle for Berlin. Are there simply not enough records around to get a good picture of this? Only vague references and whatnot?
Or are there any sources/groups of sources out there that really go in depth into the specifics of this one?

:cheers:

 

how many panzers and Sturm vehicles Crazy ? 850 is a total insane figure, the Wehrmacht armored units need to be listed and gone through one by one to have a total basis for that figure unless you are talking of hundreds of miles north and south of the capital city then the figures may and I mean may be closer to the truth, but 850 is just too high.

and true I think this is what you are seeking, best to do a real thorough check for the references on the subject which are usually of the German language

man I need a Bier

 

hows your Deutsch man ?

Das Ende Zwischen Oder und Elbe - Der kampf um Berlin 1945 bei Wilhelm Tieke. one of the classics. Motorbuch Verlag: ISBN # 3-87943-734-3 third volume ~ 1994.

there are others of course and simply the Divisional histories though most in Berlin were not divisions at all but shells fighting with anything they had in reach slowly getting compressed down to nothing by the might of the Soviets.

and although a modellers haven this is an excellent group of guys that know their history .......

www.missing-lynx.com

go to the discussion groups ~ German AFV's, am sure they can recommend the best in English translations and non-English titles

 

C :

just to throw another loop I just counted 42 Wehrmacht units with armor components in the east, some near Berlin some north up towards the Ostsee with AFV's in total of 823. this is a whole figure just not for what what was in Berlin and the closing of the city as of April 7, 1945

 

Great stuff as usual, Erich!

The reference I noted was just a passing one in a photo caption- so as you suggest, I wouldn't take it as being garaunteed accurate. Sounds more like an approximate figure to me- "somewhere around 850 AFVs lost in the approximate Berlin area" would probably be more accurate.

I'm thinking, other than general reading, that I'll make this my next little project, see if I can pull any info out of the sources I have/find some new sources.

And my German is non-existant! English translation of the Tieke source, I wonder?

Man, I need a beer- and a book shopping trip as soon as I get time!

:cheers:

 

Just chipping in here - I don't think that this particular Tieke title has been made available in English

Which is a real pity, because J J Federowicz have published one or two of his other titles ; for instance I rate his 'In The Firestorm Of The Last Years Of The War' as one of the very best sources of what the Falaise Pocket was really like from the German point-of-view.....

 

as Martin rightly put this no it is not in English and frankly not sure if ever it will be . The French chap Mabire also did a very interesting book on the 33rd W-SS unit and their struggle along with 11th SS Nordland and the armor component Schwere W-SS 503 im Berlin

I wonder if the famous After the Battle book series and its big on "Berlin then and now" would help ........... anyone have this oversized hefty volume ? it is one I never picked up

E ~

 

Erich- any chance you've got a title for that first one? If it's photo-heavy and available, that might be worthwhile despite my lack of any German.

I have seen the After the Battle book listed before, but never seen it in person. Sounds like a good one, although sounded more like the focus was on Berlin itself, as opposed to the fighting.

Still in the process of flipping through all the old books and whatnot... and I did review the bits at the end of Tigers in Combat II, I believe on the 503rd and Feldernhalle Heavy Panzer usits, both of whom apparently had Tigers in Berlin (same unit? This was only a brief once-over, still reading other stuff).
A couple nice shots of Tigers at the end- the abandoned Tiger I in front of the Brandenburg gate and an abandoned Tiger II on a city street.

Also quickly read over some of the accounts of Berlin in Fey's Armored Battles of the Waffen SS, and he well describes the absolute chaos that took place in the Battle for Berlin. From memory (no book at work), His book contains two accounts if I recall about a couple Tiger IIs fighting then heading an escape attempt which involved some other armored units. Believe there were a couple StuGs involved?

Seems though that at best one would be able to come up with unit designations and armored inventories around the start of the battle... as it progressed, chaos probably took place of much organization and tracking of the specific armored vehicles and where they were.

 

No sorry to say I do not it is mostly text from what I understand from the Frenchman, in fact I do not have the whole title either or ISBn #.

Feldernhalle was not the Schwere 503rd SS with Königstigers, in fact it was the 503rd that was of sorts the stalemate and rock in Berlin giving the Soviets such a pain in the arse along with every Landser equipped with a Panzerfaust, so much so a thorn that the Soviets deliberately took the buildings down one by one to crush the opposition.....I have a customer that lived in Berlin all her life and was witness to the brutality from both sides in this closing battle.

the last escape attempt was by a couple of 503rd SS heavies along with the remnants of the 11th Ss Pz Grenadier Stug Abt. which also had a couple of old Panther D's in it's cadre, one of them knocked out at least 11 T-34's before it was shot to bits by the bridge. some of the Germans of course made across the bridge, others swimming and those also fortunate to have ran through the under street tunnels and out east before capture, death or being closed off.........

 

I always think of the Wanze/Borgward BIV rocket conversions as distinctively Berlin AFVs, no comment on their real worth or usage but certainly present.
Achtung Panzer! - Wanze
(I assume 'Wanze' means 'beetle' from the amount that turn up on a Google image search... You learn something new every day.)

Cheers,
Adam.

 

von P: it is an eastern front thing. a close friend while serving as Waffenmeister in his company/regiment came up with several useful designs with both Panzerscreck as well as Panzerfaust, some of the trip wired. the carriage though seems only photographed in Berlin were also used in other "larger" eastern cities in Germany for the self defense mode against Soviet armor.

Crazy: another book that I thought of and maybe a few of our members have the book as well, the same chap that wrote Tigers in Combat 1 and 2 also wrote about the heavy tanks in Das Reich which also carried over to the Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 502 which served on the Ost front east of Berlin and south of it during 1945 with the heavy Königstiger so that monster book you may want to seek ?

E ~

 

Erich- as usual, great info. Looking into that other Schneider book you mention. I'd be having some better luck, but the internet connectionhere at the in-laws is about as fast as a Jagdtiger in the mud.
I did run across one title, mentioned on Amazon, called "The Road to Berlin (Military Vehicles Fotofax)". Minimal details, but sounds like it might be a worthwhile photo source.

Von P.- I've run across those before, and like Erich noted, they seem to be mostly used in situations like Berlin, other big cities, festungs. Places where the need for ad-hoc panzerjagers was great enough to warrant any kind of contraption that might work. I'd imagine that there are plenty more gadgets like that we'll never know about, as they were created and used on the spot then lost.
I've got an as yet unconstructed 1/35 model of a 4x Panzerschreck on a wooden frame being pulled by a horse... suggestive, as all of these, of the dire straights the germans were facing with the onslaught of Russian armor in the east.

Hopefully heading to Aberdeen in minutes (in laws... ), so many photos to come!

:cheers:

 

Ill just throw in the rumored WWI British MkV Rhomboid tank that was supposed to have been used in Berlin too .

 

A note on the Berlin figures they are believable. If you add up the total of Panzers/SP's available on Dec 31st 1944 (8000) and add the estimated production up to the end of April you get an incredible total of 16500!

As late as 14 April 1945 5,818 Panzer and Sturmgeshütz were still reported on hand with troops. Another 866 were en route from the factory.

Germany lost around 13000 Tanks/Stugs/JgdPz in 1944. It seems the 1945 total was greater still.

The figures came from Rich if you have your doubts!

 

All sorts of oddities were used in the defense of Berlin. Prototypes, captures, one-offs. There were several Waffenträger prototypes used in Berlin for example of which at least one was photographed.

 

But did those reports include maintenance conditions? Vehicles in short/long term repair?

I'd imagine a huge number of vehicles were abandoned/destroyed in both the east and west in the face of advancing forces. I'd think using the on-hand numbers would be faulty in terms of getting a number for how many of those vehicles actually made it to Berlin.


I can't get too far into it now (quick break from work, book at home), but the Tessier book I'm reading on the Halbe pocket has an interesting footnote on likely some of the last King Tigers in service, re: how the numbers in different sources differ greatly as to how many were serviceable at what time and when they were lost. Not directly related to Berlin, as Halbe, while close, wasn't actually IN Berlin (right?). But still sheds some light on the "encroaching chaos" sweeping over the retreating Germans at this time.

:cheers:

 

Of the 5801:


Operational
1409 tanks (1238 East, 171 West)
1447 Stug (1194 East, 253 West)

2856 Operational

In Repair.
1310 tanks (1075 East, 235 West)
792 Stug. (1802 East, 437 Weat)

2102 In repair

En Route
266 tanks (266 East)
577 Stug. (346 East, 231 West)

843 En route

Total 5801

note that I listed the 'en route' total twice in my previous post

 

Michael I can agree with your quotes for the Ost front around Berlin proper but not within the city itself and that was my point.

~ no the Halbe pocket is not Berlin but almost unknown separate entity of it's ownself, I knew two vets that participated in the last days there as another hell hole on the Ost front, as they both put it "everyone died" , no mercy for either side

 

well you know they say that if it wasent for the russain berlin would go on for another year

 

Agreed. Numbers for armor "available" late in the war are relatively easy to come by- the idea here is numbers of armor and the units using them that fought in Berlin.

On the Tigers at Halbe- and I'm including this/elaborating on it as a reference to the chaos that was going on all around Germany at this time. This does not specifically apply to Berlin, as by this time none of the vehicles in the Halbe pocket would have broken through to Berlin. But it is illustrative of the general chaos and disorganization.

Tissier mentions (p. 139) "The 502nd SS Heavy Panzer Battalion had probably only 14 of its formidable Tiger II tank left." to use in the Halbe breakout attempt.
Tissier footnotes this, and the footnote goes on to explain the differing info available here. For one, he notes that witness accounts differ as to wether these were Tiger Is or IIs.
Without copying the whole footnote (also have a beer review to write up tonight!), Tissier then goes on to examine differing info on the numbers and condition of these tanks in a number of different sources. When was the exact reference intended to account for? Where specifically were the tanks being referenced?

I'd imagine the same would be true of sources on the armor the Germans had during the battle for Berlin- during a time of such chaos, compiling sources would be difficult to say the least.

:cheers: