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Bastogne taken by the Germans?

Discussion in 'What If - European Theater - Western Front & Atlan' started by Panzerknacker, Jan 18, 2003.

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  1. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    Where would this leave their position in Europe?
    Would they be in good stead to launch another offensive...that would actually succeed?

    [ 18. January 2003, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: Panzerknacker ]
     
  2. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    If Bastogne had been taken as planned on the second day of the Ardennes Offensive, then Manteuffel's 5th Panzer Army would have reached the Meuse. ( As it was, the Germans did not even reach Bastogne until the third day - already the schedule as going wrong ).

    But Manteuffel would only have reached the Meuse - the fog would still have cleared, airpower would still have prevailed, etc.

    I don't think Bastogne would have helped Dietrich's Sixth SS Panzer Army, already becoming trapped in the North, and the 7th Army to the South was too weak to resist Patton and successfully defend Bastogne.

    So - if Bastogne had been captured, and held - I don't feel that it would have 'won' the Offensive for the Germans and the situation would have reversed ie they would have been ultimately cut off and encircled, with Allied airpower flattening Bastogne.

    The Allied forces were too strong, and the Germans too weak at this stage of the war, to achieve a decisive result for Germany.
     
  3. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    Had the Germans taken Bastogne howver, this still wouldv'e meant loss of those defending it yes....101st Airborne, 82nd Airborne, 4th Infantry, 28th Infantry, 106th Infantry.....yikes!!! [​IMG]
     
  4. De Vlaamse Leeuw

    De Vlaamse Leeuw Member

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    Like Martin said the Germans would reach the Maas.

    So Bastogne falls and the Panzer divisions can reach the Maas. They probably can conquer a bridge (because of the )and put a few tanks on the other side of the Maas.

    But then the fog clears out and the Allied airforce strikes back. They destroy the tanks on both sides of the Maas.

    By the end of januari 1945 the Germans have been drivven back towards their starting positions.
     
  5. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Depends when the Germans would have taken Bastogne - if on the second day as planned, the 101st etc wouldn't even had been there.

    If later, yes, the US units may have been partially or totally lost but the 'big picture' would have remained, ultimately, unchanged.

    ( I've always thought that 'Bastogne' became something of a 'Verdun' or 'Ypres' - the actual strategic importance becoming confused by a kind of 'emotional symbolism' for both sides )
     
  6. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    I've been waiting for an excuse to post this.

    The little private museums in and around the Ardennes are all very interesting but somewhat, er.. partisan. If you ask if there are any other good museums, they will usually say 'But this is the best one !'

    So I hooted with laughter at the following, taken from the introduction to the La Gleize 'December 1944' museum guidebook : -

    'There has been a lot of talk about Bastogne but in Hitler's plan, the key to the offensive was the Northern axis..; Bastogne had only to be skirted round. The southern troops of the striking were far from good shape : underequipped, their ill-assorted elements only had to prevent American reinforcements from reaching the front. The whole effectiveness of the offensive depended on Peiper's division....'

    So that's that, then ! :rolleyes: No need to visit Bastogne ! Seriously, I think local pride is overcoming historical objectivity here ( and DO visit La Gleize if you're in Europe.... )
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Yes, Martin,somewhere down the line read that sentence a couple of times. Funny though how much manpower and interest in Bastogne the Germans did put. Maybe later check on that one, or maybe someone knows/remembers?

    The Germans lost basically all their tanks and vehicles used in the attack. Some men were able to get back to the German lines. I think if the Germans had went full steam ahead the failure would have been even more total in the end, as the allied had attacked the base of the attacking force and sacked the troops from supplies and reinforcements. I think Patton even wanted to hold the attack for a day or two in the south so more Germans would end in to the trap...Just like Kharkov and von Manstein early 1943!

    But of course it must be said that Bastogne did draw a big number of Germans to it and elsewhere it was easier to fight the German attack.
     
  8. De Vlaamse Leeuw

    De Vlaamse Leeuw Member

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    A lot of importanted roads come together in Bastenaken.(Dutch for Bastogne)

    And I think you should also visit, if interested in WW1, the area around Ieper and Diksmuide in Belgium.
     
  9. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Some parts from
    THE ARDENNES:
    BATTLE OF THE BULGE
    by Hugh M. Cole

    http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_cont.htm


    Throughout this maneuver Luettwitz and his superior, General Manteuffel, had an eye single to shaking the armored columns of the XLVII Panzer Corps free for the dash to the Meuse bridges. Bastogne, sitting in the center of the web of hard-surfaced roads, was important-but only as a means to a geographically distant end. Bastogne had failed to fall like an overripe plum when the bough was shaken, but it could be clipped off the branch-or so the German High Command still reasoned-and without using Bayerlein's armor.

    The German dash around Bastogne was preeminently designed to encircle, not constrict. The German commanders, well aware of the fragmentization of their enveloping forces, did not consider that Bastogne had been surrounded until the evening of the 21st. The major enemy impact on this date, therefore, came as in previous days against the east face of Bastogne. The American perimeter, then taking form, represents basically a reaction to the original German intentions with only slight concessions to the appearance of the enemy in the south and west. The 502d held the northern sector of the American line in the Longchamps and SonneFontaine area. Northeast of Bastogne the 506th was deployed with one foot in Foy and the other next to the Bourcy-Bastogne rail line. To the right of this regiment the 501st faced east-one flank at the rail line and the other south of Neffe. The 2d Battalion, 327th, held the Marvie position with an open flank abutting on the Bastogne-Arlon highway.

    The evening situation report that reached OB WEST on the 21st made good reading. Rundstedt was convinced that the time was ripe for a concentric attack to crush Bastogne and make this road center available for the build-up required to support the Fifth Panzer Army at or over the Meuse. His order to Manteuffel made the seizure of Bastogne a must, but at the same time stressed the paramount necessity of retaining momentum in the drive west. Manteuffel had anticipated the OB WEST command and during the evening visited the XLVII Panzer Corps' command post to make certain that Luettwitz would start the squeeze on Bastogne the next day-but without involving the mobile armored columns of the Panzer Lehr.

    Christmas Eve in the German headquarters brought forth some cognac and a few "Prosits" but in the main was devoted to preparations for a major attack on Christmas Day. As late as the evening of the 24th Luettwitz hoped to obtain more troops from the 15th Panzer Grenadier Division, but the Fuehrer had other ideas. Earlier in the day the Fifth Panzer Army commander posed a question which finally reached Jodl and Hitler: should he turn to finish off Bastogne or continue, with the bulk of his divisions, toward the Meuse and seize the Marche plateau in an attempt to widen the German thrust? Hitler's answer, finally relayed by Model, was that the attack to seize the Marche plateau should be continued with all available forces. This answer did nothing to relieve Manteuffel's worries about his thin and endangered southern flank. [18] To leave Bastogne as a sally port onto his left rear made no military sense to this experienced soldier-so Manteuffel ordered that Bastogne be taken on 25 December.

    The German order of battle on Christmas Eve was this (read from the north clockwise). The 26th Volks Grenadier engineer battalion and a few antitank guns maintained a security screen in the Foy-Recogne sector. The 78th Fuesiliers, brought back to strength by a large draft of replacements, held on a front extending from Foy to Neffe. The 901st, its ranks much depleted by the fighting just ended, continued the circle past Marvie and to a point west of the Arlon road. The 39th was deployed on both sides of the Neufchateau road. What earlier had been the "western front"-that is, from Senonchamps north to the Marche road

    All of the higher German field commanders appear to have been in a quandary at this stage as to Hitler's intention toward Bastogne. In a conference which the author held with Manteuffel and his chief of staff, Generalmajor Carl Gustav Wagener, in Karlsruhe on 10 June 1960 Wagener said that Hitler expressed no particular interest in Bastogne during the offensive phase, nor did he insist that his original orders to capture Bastogne be followed.

    --------------

    St Vith importance

    http://hometown.aol.com/dadswar/bulge/index.htm

    The only railroad on the entire front to cross from Germany into Belgium came to St. Vith, Belgium, making St. Vith, which was also a major road junction. Thus St. Vith was the most vital initial prize the Germans sought, in order to allow supplies to flow to support the remainder of the attack. It was no accident that St. Vith was right in the very center of the Fifth and Sixth Panzer Armies: St. Vith had to be the main line of supply for both Armies. The German plan called for capture of St. Vith by 1800 on December 17 by Fifth Panzer Army, but the defenders held at St. Vith until late on December 21. This led the German Fifth Panzer Army Commander, Gen. Hasso von Manteuffel, to recommend to Hitler's adjutant on December 24 that "the German Army give up the attack and return to the West Wall." Manteuffel's reason for this recommendation was "due to the time lost by his Fifth Panzer Army in the St. Vith area."


    From a military strategy point of view , while Bastogne was a strategically important major road junction for sustaining the attack, it was on the periphery of the attack and well behind the initial front lines. The German plan was to have the panzers bypass Bastogne and let the later echelons of infantry and artillery units clean it out. And the panzers did succeed in bypassing Bastogne, so that their plan in that sector was on schedule. As a source for rallying U. S. spirits, the defense of Bastogne and McAuliffe's "Nuts" were a success. But from a strategic perspective, the German fate had already been sealed at St. Vith, when they could not take that critical supply center on Day 2 - nor on Days 3, 4, 5, and most of 6. Bastogne did not become surrounded by forces intent on taking it until the night of December 21, Day 6 of the Battle of the Bulge. The defense of Bastogne is a very important secondary element but not one of the true strategic keys to the German failure.
     
  10. Paul_9686

    Paul_9686 Member

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    I recall that John Toland, in his book, claimed that Hitler was so furious at Tony McAuliffe's famous one-word answer (NUTS!), he gave orders to take Bastogne at all costs. Thus, even after the relief of the 101st by the 4th Armored, the fight for that crossroads town continued.

    I would suggest that Bastogne had a kind of fascination for Hitler comparable, in a small way, to Stalingrad.

    Yours,
    Paul
     
  11. Friedrich

    Friedrich Expert

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    Good posts, everyone! ;)

    And I just agree with everyone else, it didn't matter if Von Manteuffel actually took St. Vith and Bastogne. Maybe the Meuse would have been reached, but certainly not Antwerp.
     
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