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BESt battleaship/battle-cruiser?

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by ray243, Sep 2, 2004.

  1. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Like I said in first reply, it depends on so many things. If it happens at night, Yamato is dead meat. But during bright daylight its totally different story.
     
  2. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    DD is a destroyer.
     
  3. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    I agree that Yamato is the likely winner over Iowa, whom she outweighs by 30%, unless the specifics of the encounter cater to Iowa's strengths.
    The 16in shell is never the equal of a 46cm shell. It does, however, match the penetration of the larger shell, and actually exceeds it under some common conditions. But that's just penetration. The 46cm shell contains an explosive that is 20% larger plus more powerful per pound. At any given range, it can expect to inflict maybe 20% more striking energy. On the other hand, there are factors that favor the 16-incher. While Explosive D cannot match TNA in explosive energy, it provides a much more reliable performance; the limited sampling provided by the Pacific War shows the Type 91 shell was liable to premature detonation. So even under conditions where you'd expect Yamato to penetrate Iowa's barbette, the shell might explode before penetrating, thus sparing the target from crippling damage. Also American shells performed much better than Japanese shells in high-obliquity impacts; Yamato's shell might break apart in an impact where Iowa's shell would survive and penetrate and explode properly.
    I'm currently scouring the historical record for instances in which the Type 91 actually worked as a submarining projectile.
     
  4. Ebar

    Ebar New Member

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    Remember to factor in fire control performance. Shell performance is a moot point unless you hit something. I would have thought by 1945 the Americans will have radar assisted fire control while the Japanese will still be relying on a visual system.

    Anyone have info on this point?
     
  5. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    As far as I know, Yamato (or Musashi) was never equipped with any kind of firecontrol radar. AFAIK they were equipped with search radar Type 21. Americans definitely had radar assisted fire control even earlier than 1945.

    Edit: Actually I'm not sure about that Type 21. www.warships1.com archived ship specifications say that Yamato and Musashi had Type 21, www.combinedfleet.com says Type 22 with this comment:
     
  6. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    The Japanese did have radar to help their FC. The so-called "Type 22" radar could provide gunnery data, but I don't see how it could have been integrated with the FC in any but a crude way. Nevertheless, it does seem certain that Yamato used radar for gunnery.
    By the conclusions of the US tech mission postwar, Japanese FC was "nearly as good" as American, though of course there was no comparison in radar quality. The Japanese fell short in lacking RPC for their big guns, and their system was somewhat more complex with more people putting in information.
     
  7. SgtBob

    SgtBob New Member

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    The radar integration portion of fire-control on the Iowa class battleships far outclassed anything the Yamato (or any Japanese ship) had. Even after reading this I used to think that the Japanese reputation for excellent gunnery would help to offset this advantage. But in every computer game simulation I've ever played/watched, the Iowa's would use their radar advantage to slowly overwhelm the Yamato. Of course these simulations are only good as the programming, but in most regards I've found them to be reasonably accurate.
     
  8. ray243

    ray243 New Member

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    okay since most of you say IWOA is powerful, what happen if the bismrack vs IWOA?
     
  9. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Iowa wins. Hands down.
     
  10. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    Iowa is larger than Bismarck and newer. The Germans would have to hope for superior crew performance or luck to give them the victory.
     
  11. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Okay then, rather unrealistic but what about the Yamato vs. the Bismarck?
     
  12. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Well, I think most times Yamato will win. Per tonne Bismarck wasn't that good and Yamato is nearly 50% heavier. I dont know much about radars but I believe Bismarck got better radar back -41 than Yamato -45. Despite this I think Yamato will win.
     
  13. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    Yamato vs Bismarck? No contest. Only the personal intervention of Lady Luck is likely to alter the outcome.
     
  14. Notmi

    Notmi New Member

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    Those are quite easy to answer. But how about these?
    KGV vs South Dakota
    KGV vs North Carolina
    South Dakota vs. North Carolina

    And lets add Vanguard there too althought it was late for WW2:
    Vanguard vs any of those three.

    All ships in their best WW2 condition, well-trained crew, daytime, calm caribbean sea.


    Btw, I found a certain WW2 naval game, Great Naval Battles I, today. Managed to fight with Ark Royal, Hood and three destroyers against Hipper, Scheer, Graf Spee and one destroyer. Germans lost their single destroyer and all other ships were damaged to some extend. RN lost 2 destroyers and Hood was demolished to floating hulk. I think I have to blame RN Vice-Admiral Notmi about that...
     
  15. corpcasselbury

    corpcasselbury New Member

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    ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE lost her fight with the three British cruisers because her captain fundamentally lost his nerve. This is NOT intended to take anything away from the British crews, who fought gallantly against a bigger and better armed opponent in the best traditions of the Royal Navy. But had Captain Langsdorff kept his head, he might well have defeated the British force, since he had managed to cripple EXETER and damage AJAX fairly severely. There was no good reason for him to seek refuge in Montevideo (sp?). The Brits simply managed to rattle him by continuing to harry him in spite of the damage they'd suffered.
     
  16. canambridge

    canambridge Member

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    South Dakota or North Carolina over KGV
    North Carolina has a very slight advantage over South Dakota, but not enough to make a real difference. It's a draw.

    Best BB of WWII is Iowa class.
    Best battlecruiser is Alaska class (okay the USN called them "large crusiers")
     
  17. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

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    Because of the power of the 2700-lb shell, the American ships have a good chance against any opponent short of Yamato. SoDak has significantly better armor than NC.
    I would rate Richelieu as next most capable brawler with the reservation that her guns may have excessive patterns. Vanguard is a close match.
    Of the remainder--KGV, Bismarck, and Littorio--it's tough to choose. Littorio looks best except she has dispersion trouble and lacks radar. KGV is stoutly armored. Bismarck starts with the radar advantage, but it vanishes by the end of 1941.
     
  18. ray243

    ray243 New Member

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    ok...one very easy way to find out, put all battleships in the world war together and made them fight against each other even if its their own country or allies, the last ship floating will be the winner.
     
  19. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    That's why battleships were made, Ray. :grin:
     
  20. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    The one with best speed/armour combination would win - they would use speed to steam out of range, the armour to protect them until they were, then wait for all the rest to smash each other up, then saunter back & pick off the winner.

    Possibly. :grin:
     

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