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Bibal. Ask me what you want.

Discussion in 'The Members Lounge' started by Wspauldo12, May 8, 2005.

  1. Wspauldo12

    Wspauldo12 New Member

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    I started this because the Bibal has come up alot in my conversations. As ask that nobody locks this topic, but please try to stay on it. If you want better answers, E-mail me at Nomar5Spaulding07@hotmail.com.

    Ask anything. I will do my best to answer everybody somewhat quickly.

    I really don't mind this at all, however hard it can be. i see it simple as a way to spread my faith through logical thinking instead of trying to drag people into a church. Besides, I would rather drag them onto a tank website! :D
     
  2. JCalhoun

    JCalhoun New Member

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    Amen brother!

    BTW, it's spelled Bible. :wink: :p
     
  3. Wspauldo12

    Wspauldo12 New Member

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    oops. that makes me look like a great spokesman for God. i can't even spell the name of His holy book right.
     
  4. David.W

    David.W Active Member

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    Never mind I'm sure He will forgive you.

    (Even if we won't !) :wink: :)

    But seriously, you must be one confident Bible scholar. I've read the Bible at least 8 times, and coluld not hope to offer a Q/A service like you have just done. I guess you will have some Divine help, from the Wonderful Councelllor.

    I know (although I haven't seen him for 5+ years now) a Pakistani Christian Minister by the name of Naeem. He had a truly incredible gift from God. You would be speaking to him about something or other (usually spiritual) when he would suddenly quote a chapter & verse from the Bible. ( I don't mean that he would quote it word for word, but he would say something like "John 3:16"). He had no idea what the text was going to be (unless it was a famous or familiar one) but when we looked it up, it was always completely relevent to what we were just talking about. It was a truly amazing gift to see in operation. And very uplifting & edifying.
    He was a very humble man, and always made sure that God got the glory.
    Christ had also blessed him with an incredible healing ministary. Jesus was able to heal one of my children from ALL of their allergies with just the laying on of hands and an accompanying prayer. The effect was immediate.
    I pray that God is able to touch & bless people through you.

    Dave.
     
  5. JCalhoun

    JCalhoun New Member

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    Well, at least there are a handful of us here. :wink:

    Oh, I think you can go back and edit the subject title.
     
  6. GP

    GP New Member

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    The Good Lord said let he who is without sin cast the first stone,


    Who here under this criteria is able to cast the first stone.


    No jokes such as 'Mother sometime I can really dislike you.'
     
  7. Stix

    Stix New Member

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    Depends on what you think of as a sin... If telling a lie is one nobody will ever cast a stone.
    I dont remember exactly what the bible or god considers a sin but I think there are truly very few people out there fully living up to its standards.
    If you are talking general or more mayor sins then there are still few but a little more people out there who are not sinners
     
  8. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    What if you never tell a lie from a certain point onwards? I haven't told a lie for half a year now. Am I still a sinner?

    And don't start about not accepting Jesus as my saviour, not accepting that someone who died 2000 years ago somehow anticipated whatever you were going to do wrong and then took the beating for it before it even happened is called "common sense", not sinning.
     
  9. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    Roel, you seem not to be able to accept that Jesus gave us all blank cheques. You can use it, but even though He took the beating for YOU, you are still going to get some supplementary beating. :angry:
     
  10. David.W

    David.W Active Member

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    Stix.

    The Biblical definition of sin is.......

    "Anything that falls short of the Glory of God".

    Hence why the Bible can say " All are sinners".



    Roel. That is a difficult question.

    Are you (or anybody) a sinner, because you sin?

    OR

    Do you (or anybody) sin, becuase you are a sinner?

    FAR, far better theologans than I, have argued that one for Centuries.

    Ultimately though, the answer is not important.

    What is important from a Christian standpoint, is will you (or anybody) acknowledge your/their sinful condition (accepting the above definition), repent of it. And accept the "blank cheque" of Christ's forgiveness.

    There in lies the cornerstone (or stumbling block, depending on your perspective) of the whole Christian faith.
     
  11. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    Not according to my "religion", in which there is no He and there is no beating in the end. :wink: You can't convince me that any being ever has the power to take the beating for all sins ever committed and to be committed - and if he had, that he would.

    It seems funny and typical of Christianity that its own theologians aren't through debating the fundamental questions of it. One could argue that it means the religion is still very much alive; to me, however, it seems more like the religion doesn't make any sense to those who really start thinking about it.

    Right. Should now be the time that we politely ask the Incas what they think is the glory of God? Why don't we ask the Aztecs while we're at it? The converted Muslims and Jews in Spain? Every man, woman and child in Jerusalem in 1099? The Cathars, Hussites, Lollards, and the Common-Lifers? The Jews, the hatred for whom the Christians invented?

    I know too much about history to believe any deity has glory, letting "their" religions be raped by men in such brutal fashion.
     
  12. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    I HAVE A QUESTION!!!

    As a Jew, mostly on behalf of my Orthodox son Arik, I am asking a principal question to Wspauldo and all the Christian friends:

    AFAIR, in the Torah, or Old Testament, G_d is only nice to Jews. He saves them from a holocaust in Egypt, allows virtual destruction of the country, and sends the Jews to Canaan, or Palestine, where He encourages Jews to kill everybody who moves and is not Jewish – in short – ethnic cleaning on mass scale: “Destroy them UTTERLY!”.

    Then comes His Son, Yeshu (Jesus), who from the very start tells openly that He has come only to the Jews. He is well versed in Torah, even brilliant – no doubt has had a good religious education. To the Samaritan woman who asks him for help he says sort of:”I have come to the Jews, but this once, when you are asking so nicely, I´ll help you, you goy shiksa” AFAIR only towards the end, in one of Evangeliums (or more, I don´t remember) he says sort of: Go and teach all nations of Earth…..
    Then He says, he´s going to the Father for (consultations?) but will be back before this generation dies. Nobody has seen Him since.

    The question is: How come that non Jews consider the G_d of Old Testament (the ethnic cleaner) and the Father of Yeshu, their own G_d? After all those promises that Jews are going to own the Earth and such….. I don´t get it.
    Why wonder that Jews during centuries were derisive vs. Christians, because they knew that they are trying to worship The Official Sponsor of the Jewish People!
    OK, Yeshu finally said: go and teach others too, but maybe it was just Licentia Poetica of the later writers. Nowhere else in the Evangeliums is there any mention of other nations, peoples or such…

    And how come that the Jews who witnessed Him making miracles, healing, going on water and being generally a wise person, didn´t want to believe Him . They, the primary witnesses, rather notorious for their curiosity and talkativeness (there is no place on Earth with so much gossip as Israel, IMHO) would have certainly recognise Him and reject the corrupt Rabbis from the Temple who were after their money and money only (for most part). And now, you, dear friends, not having seen Him talk, walk, doing miracles, imagine that you know better that He was kind of Special – Son of G_d and everything. And also that he came also for your sake.
    It puzzles me.
    (No offence intended. If I tried to be too rash in some places, I apologize here and now).
     
  13. GP

    GP New Member

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    Religion is what you believe in, Jews, Christians, Muslims and many other religions believe in one God. I am a catholic and believe in one God, however, Who or What this God is up to you. God is not a man and hever has been, He has appeared in human form but that like you and I is only a vehicle for the Glorified self. That is what we are and what God is. The Bible or scriptures were written many years ago (if you believe in them) for people who had only a limited knowledge, and so had to be simpified for them to understand or accept. It could be that because the Jews were downtrodden He came to save them to show His power. due to the maiin powers at the time were in the Middle East, that is where He came to earth.

    The Old Testament was written many years after the events, maybe the scribes altered the text slightly to indicate that He was the main sponser of the Jews. IMHO.
     
  14. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Nope, they quibble largely over semantics that actually do not really change the fundamental thrust of it.
    People sin. The Old Testament method of repentance was sacrificing something (there is a rough list somewhere of what is sacrificed for which sin). The problem was, it turned into institutionalised religion. People just went through the motions, obeying the laws. See the Pharasees in the Bible for the perfect example.
    So God sent down his son, and said 'this is your sacrifice'.

    Seems to me that you & I have already discussed this Roel.
    You cannot blanketly condemn Christianity because intolerant b*****ds perverted its teachings.
    Oh, and the Christians did not invent the hatred of the Jews. That was around thousands of years before Christ came to earth. Sadly, Medieval theology (or stupid theology, as I like to call it) promoted anti-Jewish feeling. :angry:

    And this is where we get back into the discussion on free will. :wink:
     
  15. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    And I'll try to give an answer...

    Yes, though the point is more "don't intermix with these people, do not absorb their customs" than "kill them all because you just should".

    Here I must disagree. Yes, Jesus is basically there to 'reform' Judaism - basically to stop it from being the institutionialised religion that it has become. He does, however, mentions several times that it is no longer just open to Jews, but to Gentiles to (or Goyim - that is bound to be spelt wrong! :wink: ). Think about the parable of the good samaritan. He heals the servant of the Roman Centurian (do not forget that most Jews at the time expected a 'Messiah' to come and free them from the Roman occupation). The samaritan woman at the well... (John 4)
    He basically evangelises her, and tells her that her religion is bunk, that Judaism is the way forward. I can see none of the overtones that you seem to suggest.
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... version=31

    Um, the only Gospel that mentions the Ascention is Luke, which has no time limit. And I cannot remember off the top of my head if any of the prophecies do, but I dont think so...

    Well, yes, because basically (via Jesus) God opened it up to all comers. There are plenty of lines of thought on this (some people honestly believe in 'replacement theology', where the status of 'chosen people' has moved from Jews to Christians :roll: ) but the basic thrust is that yes, he is our (our = Jew & Christian) God. This is made quite clear in the Gospels. In the early days after Christ, Jew & 'Christian' (this word was actually originally an insult, meaning 'little Christs') were virtualy indistinguishable. The big split was politically motivated, when the Jews in Jerusalem revolted (I can't remember what over what now) and the 'Christians' refused to join in. Since then, the 'Christian Church' became more & more intolerant of Jews. Which is rather ridiculous, IMO.

    Well, they did. Who do think were the early 'Christians'? :wink:

    Absolutely no offence taken. By me, at least... :grin:
    Such questions are interesting, and should be asked (and answered, and debated :wink: ). Promoting understanding is a good thing.
     
  16. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    Still no offence intended: Arik was laughing (sorry, I have long neglected him).

    Second Book of Moses, 12, 29. (…G_d killed all first born Egyptians…) One of the plagues. If it is not a mass murder, so I don´t know what it is.

    Numeri, 21, 3 (….G_d killed all Cananeans and destroyed their cities…) There is nothing here about not living together. It´s pure ethnic cleaning for Lebensraum.

    Numeri, 21, 25 and 35. The same everywhere. Kill them! Utterly destroy! Togehter with their animals, houses etc…
    The bloody work continues form many chapters. As in the 1940s – Palestine was not empty. It had to be taken and the population….

    The chapters about not intermixing come in different places and usually later.

    " Yes, Jesus is basically there to 'reform' Judaism - basically to stop it from being the institutionialised religion that it has become. He does, however, mentions several times that it is no longer just open to Jews, but to Gentiles to (or Goyim - that is bound to be spelt wrong! ). Think about the parable of the good samaritan. He heals the servant of the Roman Centurian (do not forget that most Jews at the time expected a 'Messiah' to come and free them from the Roman occupation). The samaritan woman at the well... (John 4)"

    With the Samaritan lady: there is no clear message of His intention to spread the Real Faith to anybody else. He says also "… you (Samaritans, thy were disdainded by Jews as kind of lower caste) worship whom you don´t know, whereas we (Jews) worship, what we know, ´cause all Salvation comes from Jews…." John, 4, 22. OK, OK he was nice to the Samaritan woman, but it was not his intention to proselytize at all. They came by themselves….

    BUT: MAtthaeus, 15, 24. "…I am sent Only to the lost sheep of Israel…(…)26: It´s no good to take bread form children and throw it to the DOGS…" In such wa He thought of goyim. Not very encouraging.

    As to the Jews´reaction to Him: John, 10, 33. OK, he made many "fans" as any miracle-maker, but such cases happen all the time. Take f.eks. L.Ron Hubbard, the Mormon Chief etc…..

    When I write, that Christians have not seen Him, I mean today´s people, our Friends here also. In 2000 ys one who will believe in the Mormon guy will be considered a jerk.

    Only at the end of Mtthaeus, Mark does he say of other nation. Maybe because He was frustrated by Jews or the sentence might have been added….

    About the come back to be expected soon: Matthaeus, 24, 34, Mark 13, 30. Look here carefully, Ricky! Even I remembered it having read the New Testament only once. Enough?

    " Well, yes, because basically (via Jesus) God opened it up to all comers. There are plenty of lines of thought on this (some people honestly believe in 'replacement theology', where the status of 'chosen people' has moved from Jews to Christians ) but the basic thrust is that yes, he is our (our = Jew & Christian) God. This is made quite clear in the Gospels. In the early days after Christ, Jew & 'Christian' (this word was actually originally an insult, meaning 'little Christs') were virtualy indistinguishable."

    Yes, this was one of the very few cases when some Jews were actually proselytizing. Some others are: Khazar Kingdom, where the whole political establishment of a turkish – like kingdom became Jewish. MAny people believe that most Ashkenazi Jews are not really the original Jews but descendants of the Khazars (Arthur Koestler "The XIII Tribe" and many others). Another example was the so called "Old Testamenters in Russia – the denomination is still in existence.
    One can say, the Christian Jews of the first time after Yeshu were persecuted for heresy and needed some psychological and maybe material support from their surroundings.

    Like the poor followers of Jakob Frank in XViii century Poland. When it turned out that the man had cheated on them, they asked the Polish King to become baptized – the Chief Priest of Poland baptized them and many aristocratic families gave them their names and accepted as family members (the so called Frankist movement: Frederic Chopin´s mother was form such a family, among others).

    So, you know, I´d like some more citates (and references form the New Testament) about the prozelytizing of other nations, because the "last words" are somewhat suspicious to me, as they in no way harmonize with Yeshu´s previous activities and views. The Samaritans were considered "sort of Jew-like creatures" but any intercourse with them was not allowed.

    IMHO the Old and most of New Testament are essentially judeocentric and I simply don´t understand that others did nit stumble and brake their legs on this fact. This theoretical spreading of the nation of Israel on whole Humanity is a very dubious proposition, at best. A big leap of faith, if it sounds better.

    Please, don´t take offence. I basically cite the Bible and am generally very friendly towards all people.

    Waspauldo, what do you say?
     
  17. Ricky

    Ricky New Member

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    Still none taken. :D

    Nope, too late, I'm all offended! :grin: :wink:
    Don't worry - short of personal abuse, I'm kinda hard to offend.
    I just wish I was at home with my Study Bible, Concordance & history books! :D
     
  18. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    "The Egyptian first born were destroyed to show the power of God, and to persuade the people that getting the Israelites out of Egypt is a good thing."

    A strange way for a Good G_d to show His will…

    "The Canaanites (Numbers 21) were destroyed because they had attacked the Isrealites. Just as the Amorites were, and the people of Bashan. The message is: 'mess with my people and look what happens'. Harsh, but effective Especially as the Israelites had offered to pass without disrupting any territory on the way."

    No, the latter passage is already about taking their land and cities to live in. Many subsequent examples (I just don´t have enough time) show that that was ethnic cleansing (is it good English?). Besides, if G_d is such universal, why intervene with his own forces (Stalin-like) and help THe Particular People and ash the others UTTERLY?

    He did help the woman – as AN EXCEPTION – the whole passage shows it clearly: "It´s no good to take bread form children and throw it to the DOGS…"

    "Not very surprising when you note that the Jews are God's chosen people, that the Old Testament is basically a history of the Jewish people, that Jesus was born & raised a Jew…"

    Which means that, according to the Bible – and it is the Christian Holy Book, the Jews are Chosen while the others AREN´T.
    Besides, despite His Jewish upbringing, as a Son of G_d he should have raise above the limits….don´t you think? The last sentences about other nations sound very weird, as compared with ALL His previous activities and utterances.

    What´s more – the Jewish learned religious writers (of Talmud) – only in Hebrew editions – did not hesitate to write of goyim as a sort of animal whose 1000 souls are less worth than one Jewish. A qualitative difference are they talking about. Talmud is generally a pretty tough on goyim and particularly Christians. F. eX. It´s a religious obligation of a Jew to spit when going by Christian cemeteries, crosses, particularly – churches. One Jew from Prague was observed doing that regularly and was fined to erect a sculpture of Jesus on the Vwnceslav Bridge in Prague – maybe the finest piece of sculpture on this famous bridge. The text on it is says why and by whom it (the sculpture) was erected.

    Of course a Samaritan and others can believe. F. ex. In Baal. But, please, show me the passages with everybody coming to G_d, at your leisure. I don´t remember them. Maybe it´s the Apostolic Letters. I haven´t read them. Not once.

    "Even a Roman, the oppressors, recieved from Jesus."
    Yes, help, it´s true, but no more. The tax-collector was Jewish though.

    "Don't worry - short of personal abuse, I'm kinda hard to offend."

    Thank you Ricky, Arik also thanks even though he is not convinced by your answers. I hope the others don´t get antisemitic in the meantime….. We are very happy to talk religion with a well meaning, relaxed Gentile. :D :D (the other one is Arik)
     
  19. Roel

    Roel New Member

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    If people don't really care about religion as long as it allows them to clear their conscience, then who cares? Religion after all doesn't matter, it exists purely to give answers to unanswered questions for those whom these questions trouble. If sacrificing something solves someone's problem, then so be it. However, Christians need to make this all complicated and far-fetched, by claiming that their god sacrificed his son to erase all sins for all eternity if we only accept him. Honestly what logically thinking mind would accept that? Jehoshua was just a man, and a rather arrogant one at that (note how many times he claims to be of divine descent!); I see no reason to believe him any more than any other prophet. Therefore if there's a personal thing you can do to relieve sins right here and right now, by sacrifice of something of whatever nature, isn't that just so much easier on everything?

    Yes, we have already discussed it, and I do know now that all the given examples of slaughter were really carried out for reasons of power or money. However, it is my unchanged argument that a religion allowing itself to be perverted like that is obviously powerless and also obviously unworthy of any position of power - after all, whatever its righteous intentions, it failed at them.

    How did you make this connection? :-?
     
  20. Izaak Stern

    Izaak Stern New Member

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    I will humbly remind our dear admins and the like that the subjec of this discussion is BIBLE. I am f.ex. waiting for Wasauldo´s promised answers as well as Ricky´s answers to my Arik, who hovers over my head, rubbing his sun-tanned, Orthodox hands.

    He really thinks, Christianity is a big mistake, theoretically. He thinks, though, that it was good for European ethical development.

    He is especially very curious why Poland´s Catholics have chosen Yeshu´s mother, Miriam, for their spiritual Queen, being sometimes a little antisemitic (at least verbally). She was after all a simple Jewish woman with many children and chores. Not particularly special, all in all. He was also very interested in the Late Pope´s worshipping her. He thinks it doesn´t make any sense and that the Man was just meditating and she was his mantra.

    I was considering to make a new topic where Arik could answer your question about Talmud, which he knows almost by heart, but I think it could be sort of explosive and, besides, he shall not disturb my activities here.
     

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