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Brit soldier killed. Looks like execution

Discussion in 'The Stump' started by urqh, May 22, 2013.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    One of the most grown-up pieces on the overall subject I've yet read:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/
    Not a call for bigotry, or knee-jerks, rants or appeasement. But a suggestion that people think a whole lot harder about this entire wider business - and maybe step off certain rails from time to time.

    Someone said to me recently that we're so tolerant that we've allowed a certain tolerance of intolerance. I've long thought similarly, but I think they crystallised it quite nicely.
     
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  2. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    So who are we at war with??
     
  3. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Any group that has declared war (Jihad) on us.
     
  4. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Hmmm...could be quite a few...and we've got their relatives living next door these days...hasnt afghanistan taught us anything yet?
     
  5. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    This lot have nothing to do with Afghanistan or Iraq...that may have been the catalyst....but they were rebels without a cause...they would attach themselves to whatever cause was in mode at any time.

    Saying we could have some living next door. Is no excuse for not doing something about them. Its more of a reason to stand up and do something...Legally, I'm not talking lynch mobs...I'm talking of defending structures and a way of life...If those living next door wish to violently change those structures and way of life...It is not the way to hide from them and let them think there is fear abroad and nothing will be done because they simply live next door and we'd rather turn a blind eye.

    This country defended those structures and way of life in ww2 and at other times...We won't and should not balk at the enemy within...now that enemy is indeed within.
     
  6. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    While saying that we are in a "State of War" is easy, implementing such a concept in relation to the recent attacks like Boston, London and Paris is a far more difficult proposition. For these types of acts Criminal investigations do seem to work best. Do we militarize the Police? Are we choosing to reside in Police states?

    Sadly there is no target we can easily strike back at and the only effective tools we might have to silence hate inspired rhetoric is to shut down the Internet, and expel entire populations or groups of even slightly similar belief.

    While I hate to make the analogy these type of terrorist/criminal acts are much like "acts of God". Difficult to predict, almost impossible to stop once underway, as regular as the seasons and the only response is to clean up afterward .

    We can choose not to live within a threatened area, or we could spend vast sums of money to cover every possibility, but we as a society are not going to do this. Oklahoma and Kansas could require that every home and business have a storm shelter rated to a F-5 storm, that every state and federal highway have shelters every 10 miles or so.

    Does anyone think this will happen?

    Think back to the debate we had on gun control and mental heath we had after the movie theater and school shootings. Have we done anything to curb these?

    No we haven't and we probably never will.

    Until we live in some future where mind control reigns and every person only has "Right Think" or we scrap most of our time honored freedom's (pretty much the same thing) we will always be at the mercy the mad and angry fringe.

    Post Script.

    As I write this the local news flash a story about a young man who was just stopped before he could deploy 6 bombs in a school in New York.

    nuff said.
     
  7. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    While saying that we are in a "State of War" is easy, implementing such a concept in relation to the recent attacks like Boston, London and Paris is a far more difficult proposition. For these types of acts Criminal investigations do seem to work best. Do we militarize the Police? Are we choosing to reside in Police states?

    Belasar...that is the problem...over here there are too many obstacles for the police to surmount until it gets to the stage where the act is carried out...These two guys were known of by the security service here..even Arrested in Kenya one of them..and pictured in the company of banned orginisation leadership on tv in the open. And still he managed to do what he did. If the domestic laws are not good enough to stop these nut jobs then the domestic laws need changing..and I'm not talking dictatorial laws..But when society knows who the enemy is in person...That person should not be allowed the freedom of movement withing the society they threaten...And I know some will say thats sinking to their level..I'm sure the fusileer and his family wouldn't think that was too much of a price to pay. Indeed I suggest all listen to the family and what they especially the moderately viewed, mature thinking of the father. He does not ask for too much..just the seperation of KNOWN foes to our way of life having something done before they act on society...Which is exactly what happened..Because nothing was done.
     
  8. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    A good question might be, "how did this person enter the country if he was arrested in Kenya? Legal or not?"

    Is the average citizen of the UK willing to accept the conditions necessary to screen out these at the border? Would most Briton's, or American's willingly live in a state like Israel? Even if so, their protocols still do not stop terror attacks.
     
  9. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Firstly I'd love to see the figures of Isreali's holding dual US passports etc..but thats another matter.

    The guy was born in UK Belasar...he was arrested on a trip to Kenya..the other had been according to leaks...on a training camp jolly to Somalia...Folk in the security apperatus were aware of this..I'm not saying he was an immigrant..he was as British probably more so than me.
     
  10. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    No, turn the event (and the culprits) over to the military. The civil authorities can certainly investigate, just let the action be taken by the military authorities.

    Did we agonize over locking up federals or confederates in the civil war? No. The respective governments just locked up those soldiers for the duration, even though in northern eyes those confederates were US citizens. Those convicted of war crimes were executed by military tribunals, on both sides.

    That's what international law says to do with combatants in a war.
     
  11. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    I'm not trying to twist your tail on this, just playing Devil's Solicitor. :)

    Is an arrest in one Crown Commonwealth country justification legally to bar entry into another, or re-entry to your "home" country. Something tells me it is not unless they had an outstanding warrant for them. Intell that infers another may have been to training camp also seems problematical. Do they tell the suspect "we think you have been loitering around a terrorist training camp, so prove you weren't, or go to some other country to live". I suspect that some of your civil liberty folk would have a field day out of that.

    Is your security apparatus willing to expose their methods of gathering intelligence simply to bar entry to some schmo who might be up to no good? Do you have enough people to shadow 24/7 every potential security risk? If you did, is getting into Great Briton all that hard illegally? It certainly isn't in the US or Canada.

    Say what you will about America's and her Allies Global War on Terror (GWOT), and you could say quite a bit actually, it has made the large scale terror events somewhat obsolete.

    The new trend is for smaller more discreet and less well planned and supported acts by lone wolf's or mini cell's. These recent attacks are shocking yes, but pale in comparison to WTC one, USS Cole, Khobar Towers, 9-11, Madrid etc. They are targeting extremely soft targets with little or no security, and too be honest these are not great minds executing these acts. The Boston bombers did little to disguise themselves, stayed in the area when they could have travelled hundreds of miles by car before being exposed and then committed a series of stupid crimes that only ensured their capture. The London pair stood around waiting for the police to come get them.

    I have long worried that if a Terror organization was truly clever they would send out waves of expendable fools like we have seen recently to create as much mischief as possible with the simplest of tools and weapons. Short of having guys in trenchcoats on every corner constantly asking people for their papers or creating "collection/detention camps" as in WWII for "Enemy Aliens and suspected 5th columnists" I am not sure how we could counter it totally.
     
  12. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Who wants to bar them entry back into their own country? The UK.

    No, the problem with these 2 was not the border or entry system...

    The problem is letting them roam the streets, when today in the UK you can be arrested for incitement to hatred..or even an offence that may cause another to even feel threatened without the threatening behaviour.

    And these guys are going around shouting out kill the westerner...ironic seeing as he is was a middle class boy from a house many in this country could strive a lifetime to achieve...And appear with known agitators on tv with a group that was called a terrorist orginisation by the govt and banned.

    And he still walks the streets...No one is saying send him back or kick him out..I'm saying he had done enough to be arrested for offences which are deemed more serious than some who are threatened with arrest for supplying cheese to a cheese roller festival in Gloucester as it was deemed dangerous and Police would arrest the pensioner doing so.

    And yet...this guy was never even threatened with arrest...how does the fusileers family feel about this...They are furious..as am I.
     
  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    Here, urqh, this will cheer you up!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmyW5B91_o4&feature=player_embedded
     
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  14. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    There is no doubt that we are at War. Not the concept of War we usually think of but a new type of conflict that creates difficulties some refuse to accept. We’ve come to a point where it is ‘uncivilized’ to profile or speak ill of another group for fear of offending the offenders. What we have seen in recent months is a continuation of the tip of a very large iceberg of Radical Islam. Every “terrorist attack” from the Boston bombing, the shooting at Ft. Hood, the murder in London of Fusilier Rigby, the list goes on, leads back to a ’religious leader’ espousing hatred. I’m all for religious freedom; right up until that Right reaches the point where it begins to infringe on not just the beliefs of others but the safety of anyone not affiliated with “The One Religion”. We passed that point a long time ago. It’s time to cut the heads off the snake and let the axe fall.
     
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  15. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    I have a thing about uav's but not about their use, just their operational methods...Saying that I know this was choppers..

    Taking out known terrorists, or folk who are about to harm, or have harmed..is not a problem even to a lefty like me..Being a lefty does not preclude me from or never would have..from pulling a trigger on someone who it was necessary to pull a trigger on.

    No matter what race or religion they are...despatch em IF necessary...and let their God sort out which one is which.
    Kudos to the Brit policeman who fired on them..No hesitation..He knew what had to be done. Pity they never got to meet their god.
     
  16. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer Member

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    I have very few inhibitions about the killing of Jihadis, no matter the method. These radical Islamics are worse than einsatzgruppen of WWII. They strap bombs on crazy people and send them to blow up children.
     
  17. urqh

    urqh Tea drinking surrender monkey

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    Neither do I mate...my problem with the UAV...is it replaces the RAF one day.
     
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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  19. GRW

    GRW Pillboxologist WW2|ORG Editor

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  20. Poppy

    Poppy grasshopper

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