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Capital punishment

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by Deep Web Diver, Jan 13, 2003.

  1. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    I have a question,
    When a State executes a person who is later found to be innocent, who do they charge with his murder ?
     
  2. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    Redcoat: that's the point. Judicial Murder is so good that even if you kill the wrong man, nobody gets punished. It's just chalked up as an unfortunate "miscarriage of justice". An interesting description for the wrongful taking of a citizen's life by the State.

    Saying that giving guns to people makes the world a safer place is not borne out bt the facts as presented in the US. It is like saying thet if you speed through an urban area you are less likley to cause an accident because you are in that area for a shorter period of time than you would have been if you had driven slowly.

    Yardie culture is a Jamaican import, it involves a combination of music, drugs, gangs and firearms in a particularly heady mix. I don't know anything about "Asian gangs". Most British Asians are law abiding in the extreme and are usually victims of violence rather than perpetrators. There are some youth problems but no more than you get amongst youths of other ethnic origins. Yardie culture is a real problem because Jamaica is a Commonwealth country and there is a strong tie between the UK's black population and the West Indies.

    Nevertheless the murder stats speak for themselves, as does the US prison population. Isn't it true that the State of Oregon had to let out 600 prisoners in order to balance the books? As a lot of states look at having to make cuts in order to balalnce the budget can the USA continue to afford it's current policy on law and order?

    Jumbo
     
  3. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi Urgh--thank you for correcting me on the weapons used for Fox hunting ;) I probably misread Jumbos purpose for the list and Jumbo--I apologise for misunderstanding your list.

    New York City has always been notorious for its crime--they are much much safer these days because of the tragedy of Sept 11. Because of it--there is many more Policemen on the job--cameras etc. Also--New York City has a population exceeding 8 million people--I dont think there are many European Cities that exceed 8 million people--if im wrong--please correct me. :D

    Urgh--thank you for at least taking the time to understand my position on the death penalty--I do try my best to understand others in their opinions--that is the only way to be fair about a reply. [​IMG] Im sure you are correct that some states here probably use execution as a revenge--but if that is the case--that is a gross miscalculation of Justice--and effects all of us negatively.

    See thats what imtrying to instill on Jumbo--if he experiances what I have as well as others--im positive he would start having different thoughts on this subject. Ive had more than one friend killed during a crime--and these are soem of my first and longest friends that I grew up with--we were practically brothers.

    No problem on the Fox fun--it was my mistake in not knowing enough about it :rolleyes: :D


    Redcoat--unfortunately that has occurred in the past--which is why these men served close to 20 years on death row--so that there is thought to be enough time in case they are found innocent--to make sure this does not happen--which unfortunately did. No system is perfect--and sadly--this one isnt either. As far as I know--nobody gets charged with a crime--but heads do roll and people do lose their lucrative jobs and the statte payes restitution to the executeds family as compensation of sorts.

    As I state again--it is NOT JUDICIAL MURDER BUT id justice.

    Jumbo--please present me with any USA facts that prove that the average citizen who owns or carries a gun--creates more crimes. Talk to the average Law Enforcement person and you will be told different.

    Thank you for the explanation for Yardie Culture--its something that when I have more time--I will do some research on as it sounds interesting and looks worth it to learn about.

    I dont have a clue on what the state of Oregon did with its inmates--the better berson to ask that question of--would be my friend Erich Brown--as he lives there.

    Best regards--Carl.
     
  4. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    Chris

    I have to put my hands up and say I have no empirical evidence from the US. After all it may well be meaningless given other cultural factors to compare the US with another country. I suppose Canada would be the closest culturally and I wonder what their statistics for gun crime are. I still hold to the belief that more guns in society means more gun crime. I wish the founding fathers had written "flintlock" into the constitution instead.

    Incidentally today's Economist throws up some equally interesting statistics. 59% of Americans say that Religion is "Very Important", thirteen states still have anti-sodomy laws and the Bush administration promotes sex education based on abstinence. Yet Puritanical America still has higher rates of abortion and unwanted pregnancy than any of us "morally corrupt" Europeans.

    I underline this as a clear illustration of the social gulf which exists between the USA and supposedly American-obsessed Britain never mind the UK.

    All the more reason to keep talking.
     
  5. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    BTW--just yersterday on radio news--they now admit that it was a mistake cleaning out death row. As I heard it not only on the Eric von Wade show but also Michael Savage and Michael Medved.
     
  6. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    Excellent comparison, Jumbo. Do you claim a copyright on this, or may I use it whenever I run into another "gun control" discussion (guess the No.1 discussion thread in the WWW)?

    I've gone through this discussions for so many times, I just can't take it any longer from the serious side ('Bowling in Columbine' is an excellent, entertaining movie, btw). I take it this way: the Yank housewife should have all the firepower she needs to survive, as long as the Yanks leave their beloved guns at home if they visit the rest of the world, it's OK. Meanwhile I trust in God that I'll survive the few times I'm in the U.S. for business reasons (without any weapon but my snobbish european attitude). Survived it so far, never got shot at, never robbed, so I'm bullish on that, no matter what European leftist media is telling me.

    And my U.S. colleague from L.A. enjoyed the "safe" times here in Europe pretty much, too. Actually a new experience to him to letting his 9-year-old boy drive to training at night by sub way without worrying at all (2.5 million city, 14 homicides in 2001, 37 tried homicides).

    Take care & Cheers,
     
  7. Deep Web Diver

    Deep Web Diver Member

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    [ 15. September 2003, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]
     
  8. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Well done Crapgame!! Thanks for showing some that there is always two sides to the story and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle of it all.
     
  9. Deep Web Diver

    Deep Web Diver Member

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    [ 15. September 2003, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]
     
  10. AndyW

    AndyW Member

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    To an outsider, it's quite amusing to see Michael Moore kickin' the anthill and see panicked little pissed-off republican ants crying "foul". :D

    Good that Ben Fritz is still recognizing Moores movie as being what it is, a "Satire", bad that he doesn't see the difference in methods between a satire and a PC documentary.

    Thank God there is still Mark Twain. ;)

    Cheers,
     
  11. Jumbo_Wilson

    Jumbo_Wilson Member

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    No matter how many NRA-sponsored articles attack Moore and how many Republicans howl at his satire the overall attack is still credible and compelling. The USA has problems (gun violence, high levels of poverty, social exclusion all need fundamental solutions). The fact that solving them involve slaughtering a few sacred cows means instead they turn to the law as a battering ram. More Judicial Murder, more people in prison, more guns in society. Wake up guys IT ISN"T WORKING. I checked the Canadian statistics. Only 554 murders took place in Canada in 2001 (a steady fall has taken place) of which only 171 involved guns. This is only a third as many per head compared to the USA. Suicides account for four fifths of the total gun deaths in Canada.

    So if it's not access to firearms then what is it? Why does the US have this problem?

    Returning to Death Row I'm not surprised that this has caused a furore. How many other Governors are stricken by doubt and are at the end of their political careers? No wonder there has been an avalanche of criticism from the right against a REPUBLICAN Governor. What if a few others did the same?

    Jumbo
     
  12. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Jumbo--normally I would not get this abrupt openly but--you have no clue on whats happening here do you?

    Crime is down especially in my area--and around here--you used to have to watch out for drug smugglers--not so much anymore.
     
  13. Deep Web Diver

    Deep Web Diver Member

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    [ 15. September 2003, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Crapgame ]
     

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