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carbines

Discussion in 'Weapons & Technology in WWII' started by Colin, Jan 21, 2003.

  1. Colin

    Colin Member

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    hello again. i wanted to know if anyone knows what a carbine was because i used to think it was basically the same thing as the m1 garand but i'm not to sure. thanks.
     
  2. Smoke286

    Smoke286 Member

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    Colin, I presume you are refering to the M1 Carbine as oppsed to carbines in general. This weapon was completely different from the M1 Rifle and fired a totally different cartridge, the idea was to have a light weight weapon (less then 6 pounds) that could be used to replace a pistol or a submachinegun
     
  3. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    Smoke 284 is right.. the confusion can arise because some writers refer to the M1 Carbine as the 'Garand Carbine'.

    This is because both carbine and rifle use the Garand rotating-bolt design, but otherwise they are totally different.
     
  4. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Basically there was a problem because jeep drivers, tank crews, artillery men, signallers and generally people who had a lot of weight to carry or didnt have room or need for a full rifle found that pistols were not sufficient and so a request for a cross between a pistol and a rifle was made. The result was the M1 Carbine which fired a .30 cartrige that looked a bit like a long pistol round, used the same rotating bolt as the Garand (which frankly I think is the most beautiful bolt mechanism ever made, I could watch it for ever), had a mag of 15 rounds normally and was seen in 2 varients in WW2, the M1 and the M1A1 which had a folding stock for paratroopers. At the end of the war an M2 and M3 carbine were made, the former allowed fully automatic fire and the latter had a huge infra red sight on it. Both can be identified by their curved magazines of 30 rounds, that of the M1 was straight. Essentially it was supposed to be a big pistol but because it was so light and easy to shoot (holding one does feel like a dream, as you may be able to tell I love this weapon) it was freuently used as a full rifle. Soon squad leaders were using them and they were very common amongst paratroopers (in Saving Pte. Ryan, Sgt. Mike Horvath uses one for most of the film, ironic because looking at him I would have thought he could carry a full rifle just as easily). Incidentally it is a little known fact that they were quite common in British units too, as officers would nick (or half inch them if you prefer) them so that they had something better than the old webley (or even the new one which was worse than the big heavy WW1 version). The only major problems were that they were useless over 200 yards and it was found when they were used in the Korean war that the round was so lacking in stopping power that they were being stopped by the greatcoats and winter clothing of Korean soldiers. I have always wondered if being able to pour 10 rounds into someone and still have 5 left made up for this.

    I will see if I can find some pics but I cant put pics on the forum so I will have to link you to other sites. I hope this has been moderatly useful.
     
  5. Panzerknacker

    Panzerknacker New Member

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    The M1 carbine usage ethos, was the same as that of the M1 Garand. The use of both weapons was the ethos of sheer firepower at short to medium range-teh carbine traditionally was a weapon used to fire at shorter distances than a rifle.
    Based on belifs of what the age of warfare would be like-urbanised, close combat, as well as the need (as Stefan said) for non-infantry types to be armed with a weapon, it was believed the carbine would be the best choice, considering drivers, clerks etc would be engaged at close quarters, and would not need the accuracy and distance of the standard infantry rifle.
     
  6. mp38

    mp38 Member

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    You are correct. The M1 carbine was designed to replace both a rifle and a pistol.
    In reality it did neither. The cartrige was too small to have any long range accuracy of a rifle.(like the M1 Garand)
    At close range the round was too small to have the stopping power of a pistol. (like the Colt 1911a1).

    My uncle carried one of these in Korea, and he hated it. He said one time he hit a N. Korean soldier 5 times at less than 15 yards, and he didn't go down. Luckily his buddy next to him had a 1911, and shot him once, and he dropped!

    In my opinion, the M1 carbine was a waste of time and production. Should have made more Thompsons, BARs, and Garands!

    Matt :cool:
     
  7. mtchristman

    mtchristman Member

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    Operation: M1, M1A1 Semiautomatic; M2, M3 Selective
    Length: 35.65 in. (905 mm)
    Weight unloaded: 5 lb 7 oz (2.48 kg)
    Barrel: 18 in. 4 grooves, right hand twist
    Magazine: 15 or 30 round detachable box
    Muzzle: velocity 1990 fps, 967 ft-lbs.
    Rate of Fire: M2 on full auto, 650-700rpm
    300 yds: 1035 fps, 262 ft-lbs
    Ammunition: 108 gr bullet, 13 gr charge, US Service M1
    Effective Range: 300 yds

    About 5,510,000 M1 carbines, 150,000 M1A1 carbines, 570,000 M2 carbines, and 2100 M3 carbines were manufactured.

    The M1 Garand was the weapon of choice for infantry. The M1 Carbine, half the weight and with a less powerful cartridge, was the weapon of choice for support troops, and others not primarily involved in infantry combat. It was designed to meet combat needs less demanding than the M1 Rifle, but more than can be met by the M1911A1 pistol. It was more convenient to use than the M1, and less intrusive to their other duties, while still much more effective than hand guns.

    Originally, the M1 was to be capable of selective fire control, but this was dropped. Because a demand arose for an automatic capability, the M2 was developed, with a selective-fire switch added to the left side of the receiver, operating on the sear mechanism.

    The US Carbine, Caliber .30in, M3, or T3, was simply an M2 with suitable mountings prepared on the receiver to take various models of infra-red night-sighting devices. No open or conventional sights were provided, and the IR carbine mounted an M3 flash hider, a simpler design than that for the M1C Garand. The M3 carbine, (its development title was T3), was produced in limited numbers as a semi-prototype. Only about 2100 were manufactured compared to 5,510,000 M1 carbines, 150,000 M1A1 carbines and 570,000 M2 carbines.

    The M1 and M2 Carbines were also much more powerful than the Russian type burp guns used by the North Koreans and, later, the Chinese, having more than twice their muzzle energy.

    In the infantry, the M2 Carbine was carried by Staff NCOs and officers. With its 30 round magazine, rapid fire and greater stopping power, it was an effective counter to the various submachine guns used by the Communists in the Korean War.

    In intense cold, however, such as the Chosin battle, light weapons such as the carbine and air-cooled .30 calibre light machine guns malfunctioned much more often than the M1 and the water-cooled heavies, with anti-freeze in their jackets. The Marines used alcohol based hair tonic as anti-freeze lubricants for all light weapons, with good success, but the carbine components were small and fragile, and repeatedly malfunctioned.

    The Carbine continued to be used in Viet Nam, until replaced by the M16.
     
  8. TheRedBaron

    TheRedBaron Ace

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    The M-16 replaced the M-14, I think...

    But they were certainly used, mainly by the ARVN. :confused:
     
  9. Battery Steele

    Battery Steele Member

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    The term Carbine means: a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for warfare in dense brush and jungle.

    The T-26 Garand was just that; a "Garand Carbine". The T-26, also known as a Tanker Garand, was designed as a jungle weapon with the stopping power of the .30-06 cartridge in a shortened barrel M1 Garand.

    This weapon was only produced in small numbers (around 20,000 as compared to 4 million standard Garands) and soldiers fighting in the close combat conditions of jungle warfare wanted the length of the standard M1 Garand for the bayonet. The T-26 also produced quite a kick because of the shortened barrel and lightened stock. Springfield Armory's efforts to make 18" barreled T-26 Garand version had nothing at all to do with tanks or any other tracked vehicle...the name "Tanker Garand" came about many years after the end of WWII when commercial concerns discovered it was an excellent gimmick to use when selling their own made-up Dwarf Garand version....it's still working today.

    The M1 Carbine was introduced primarily for officers, radio-telephone operators, ammo.bearers, mortor-men and any auxiliary soldiers whose duties were other than frontline riflemen. NCO's and Tankers often used M1A1's, M3 Grease guns and 1928 Thompsons as their primary weapons as well as many frontline officers carried the M1 Garand so as not to stand out for enemy snipers.

    As a side note: The Johnson Rifle M1941 was seriously considered by the U.S. Marines as a solution to the early shortages of the M1 garand.
     
  10. wilconqr

    wilconqr Dishonorably Discharged

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    Look for "Carbine Williams" on the web. I had a few site addresses but it will not let me send them! Thought the "REAL" story of the carbine might interset someone.
     
  11. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Hi Bttysteele.

    All so-called tanker Garands were nothing but original Garands with the barrels cut a few inches. No Garand was manufactured as a Tanker.

    That's one of those Garand "Urban Legends."

    Just meee 2 cents worth. ;)
     
  12. Battery Steele

    Battery Steele Member

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    C. Evans,
    That's what I stated in my posting. The T-26 was manufactured by Springfield Armory as a T-26--a special order--with redesigned stocks made of birch instead of walnut to allow for the shortened barrel.
     
  13. C.Evans

    C.Evans Expert

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    Not a problem--I guess I misread your post [​IMG]
     

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